<p>Hi,
My S wants dual major (BA/BM) in university just like music/science or music/foreign language. I found out most of that program need 5 full years which is too long.
Is it be hard to reduce periods? He can get college credits for two AP courses.</p>
<p>My son is pursuing a double degree. He is doing this because he loves academics, in addition to music. As it is, he doesn’t have enough time in the day to take all the classes he wishes to take. If he needed to cram them all in to four years, he would be short-changing both of his degree pursuits - let alone having no chance to explore outside of his majors. If money were no object, I think he would be happy taking six years! His AP credits only count towards electives not towards the degree fulfillment requirements.</p>
<p>However, I think from observing my son and his peers in the double degree pursuit, that parents and students are too cavalier, or even self-deluded about choosing such a path rather than devoting themselves entirely to only one degree. It’s difficult for some - either students or parents - to say music is what I want to do, and music will be perfectly fine as my degree and only degree. Alternatively, the student could choose to take many courses in music as electives, while getting their degree in some other field entirely. Or one could do a double major rather than double degree- BA in Music and BA in Computer Science, for instance, as one of my son’s friends is doing at an Ivy League college.</p>
<p>Two of my son’s friends have chosen to give up the double degree - as for one it was just too much internal pressure and he felt he could do neither pursuit well enough, and, for the other he found that all he wanted to do was music and everything else was just a distraction for him.</p>
<p>I think one needs to think long and hard about why one is pursuing the double degree. If, like my son, stimulation and joy come from both pursuits - then go for it, but don’t rush it and sacrifice one’s education to an arbitrary time constraint. </p>
<p>But, if one is only doing it out of indecisiveness, or a sense of obligation to get a more ‘marketable’ degree, then I would think more than twice about following this quite difficult and demanding path.</p>
<p>SpiritManager is correct on all fronts (great post, by the way!). My D considered it, and had 6 AP/Dual Credit classes, but it still would have taken her the full 5 years. The requirements for a performance degree are so intense that there isn’t a lot of time anyway, especially if they attend a school which also has heavy academic requirements, add in another entire degree and try to condense it all into 4 years and things like sleep, decent nutrition and health go by the wayside.</p>
<p>Any BM degree is going to be very intense and I really dont see how one could do a BM and another bachelors in 4 years, even with summer school. </p>
<p>Many music students go on to study other subjects in grad school. You may want to consider that any time over 4 years as a undergrad is time that could have been spent at graduate school. Many grad schools offer a year and a half masters program, so taking 5 years for two bachelors or a duel major really doesn’t seem time efficient to me when in just a few more months one could have earned a masters.</p>
<p>Your son might want to consider majoring in music, and then a minor in another subject. Some colleges no longer have minors, but most do. At my son’s college, most minors are only 18 credit hours, these extra hours could be gained in just a summer school (or two) at our local community college. At that point, he might would be a good candidate for grad school in either music or his minor (or law which really doesn’t require any specific major as an undergrad).</p>
<p>Two Bachelors degrees probably would be a lot less valuable than a bachelors and a masters.</p>
<p>I am doing a double degree- BM Piano Performance & BA History. I am only a freshman so I’m not that far into it yet, and could end up dropping the second degree if it gets to be too much in later years. I want to keep both, but sometimes that proves to be impossible and there is the possibility that it could happen, since I’ve heard of it and seen it happen already. But I’m trying it for now at least- I’m taking classes for both and am next semester too (just registered for classes today!). I know a senior who was a double degree person (BM violin performance & BA international studies) who had to drop that just this week, senior year, which sucks after all that work because of some class she can’t fit in for the BA degree because of music classes- scheduling is another major difficulty. There are music classes that you have to take in that particular semester and everything else gets scheduled around that. I have to look at all my required music classes first and then figure out what gen ed class and what class for my 2nd major/degree that I can fit around those. Classes for the music degree will come first and may prevent you from taking some other classes that you’re interested in for the other major. There are just so many more for music- next semester I have 13 classes (which sounds like a ton, not sure if you’re familiar with how music credits work yet!), and there are 9 music classes, 1 for my 2nd major/degree, 1 gen ed regular class, and 2 gen ed PE classes (that each are for half the semester). I’m taking the maximum credit load allowed for a BM degree, which is 5.5 units (about 22 semester hours) compared to 4.5 units max for BA liberal arts major and 4.75 max for BA music, unless you overload credits beyond that, which freshmen can’t do, but I know upperclassmen music majors who have taken between 5.75-6.5 for double major/double degree.</p>
<p>It is possible to do it in 4 years, but not likely. I’m planning on 5 years, and still taking maximum credit load, but that also depends on the school. AP credits help a lot, but 2 is not that much help.</p>
<p>Also, combining music and science (especially a difficult lab science!) is extremely difficult if not impossible to do in 4 years, or even 5. It’s typically recommended against combining those 2 if you ask music professors. I even know someone who’s doing music and biology, but as a double major (BA only), not double degree, and even with that it’s very, very difficult and her piano practicing suffers because of biology and she’s so tired and exhausted all the time. If you attempt music and science, plan at least 5 years if doing the double degree, or even for just double major. Doing music and a foreign language would probably be ok, and hopefully could test out of the intro course sequence for the foreign language (like those 2-3 courses that are part of the gen ed sequence in that language that don’t actually count towards the major sometimes but have to take them or test out and then start the major courses, check into that).</p>
<p>Also it depends on the music program…if it’s an intense music program at a school known for music, then it’s going to be difficult and as it was already mentioned, if the school is difficult academically in general, that’s something to consider. He can start with it and see how it goes, but know that it may not be that way in the end.</p>
<p>I have 5 AP classes that count for gen ed and a couple elective credits, as well as testing out of the 3 required classes in the gen ed sequence for my foreign language requirement, so that’s 8 classes done and still will be 5 years. Music majors just have so many more classes than others…to give you an idea, at my school, the average non-music liberal arts major has about 10-12 classes in their major (plus gen ed and electives after that), but music has about 2 1/2 times that for a performance, composition, or music ed major, plus gen ed classes on top of that!</p>
<p>If still thinking double degree and 5 years but worried about scholarships because they usually only count for 4 years, ask about it for a 5th year if he’s doing a double degree. Sometimes they make exceptions, depending on the school of course, but it’s worth a try to ask!
He could consider getting a BA in music and the other major if you are set on doing it in 4 years.</p>
<p>^When I said about the 10-12 classes and music having 2 1/2 times that…2 1/2 times the number of CREDIT hours, not # of classes…way more than 2 1/2 times the number of classes because credit hours are so different for music! just wanted to clarify that. So 10-12 classes = about 40-48 credits/semester hours and music, for me has 26 units * 4 = 104 semester hours, I actually have 40something classes required in that…now that post makes more sense!</p>
<p>While Harvard has a 5 year double degree program (BA/BM), I noticed it also allows music majors to do the BA in 5 years, allowing for the extra time needed for practice and performance. Everyone is different, and these two options perhaps represent a spectrum at that institution.</p>
<p>However, in every way, including practical logistics, doing a double degree in 4 years would not seem to be a realistic possibility.</p>
<p>p.s. Spirit Manager, does Bard still require a double degree for conservatory students?</p>
<p>This spring, my son will be completing a double performance degree, which he has done in four years. It would never have been possible without his school’s very generous acceptance of AP credits, his passing out of fundamental first year courses in theory and ear training, and three years of summer school. He also has taken 20 credits many terms when 15 is the usual. Clearly, this isn’t for everyone. :)</p>
<p>I share his story always to say that what some claim is impossible actually isn’t, but it certainly isn’t easy either (he wouldn’t have had it any other way though!). There are definitely conservatories and music schools where this is more easily done, and a lot of the possibility lies directly with the temperament and ambition of the actual student.</p>
<p>Oberlin gives a lot of support to double degree students and tries hard to make completing both degrees possible in five years. Something like a quarter to a third of those in the conservatory are also pursuing a degree in the college at any given time. Roughly half of those students are able to complete both degrees in five or more years and the other half eventually drop one or the other. Occasionally a student who has started with lots of AP credit (usually more than just two classes) and who has tested out of some other things, like the first semester or two of music theory and the piano proficiency requirement, has been able to complete both degrees in four years plus one additional semester. Completing both degrees in four years has been done only a few times in the entire history of the program, always under extraordinary circumstances. So, while it is technically possible, the odds are overwhelmingly against it, particularly if going in with credit for only two AP courses.</p>
<p>In answer to compmom - yes, Bard Conservatory still requires all its students to get a second degree in the College - and provides financial support for the full five years. This means that there will be two senior projects due from the student - a Senior Thesis in an academic subject, and a Senior Concert. They would not, however, necessarily be due at the same time!</p>
<p>The two students I mentioned who chose to drop the double degree were required to leave the conservatory. There is no option at Bard to remain in the conservatory without pursuing the second degree. However, it is possible to get a BA in Music from the College and some of the same resources are available to both the college students and the conservatory students, including those not majoring in music at all. This is particularly true for the composition students for whom most of the composition professors are still available to them, and there are the same performance opportunities for their compositions. They do, however, lose any merit funding from the conservatory. (Although they may gain some merit funding from the college - that would be determined in other ways.)</p>
<p>As I think about this issue I realize that it is similar to what we all have said - if you can imagine life without music then it might be best to choose an easier path. But if you can neither imagine a life without music, nor a life without the intellectual stimulation of academic learning in areas other than the musical, then pursuing two separate degrees could be worth the effort.</p>
<p>Why is 5 years too long? What’s the rush?</p>
<p>Thank you so much for many precious advices.
It is really helpful.
To be frank with you, I am so surprised to find out that music major has to do so many courses. My son wants to take performance major which is not in BA but only in BM. If he take BM, he can do double majors only within music school. One of the reason I concern about years is that it is related with scholarship. The school accepts only 2 AP credits but I will ask to consider more (maybe impossible).
Now, I think 4 yrs looks ridiculous. If he must go to travel from time to time because of music, it might be more hard.</p>
<p>My D is a VP major and her 4 year program is a required 136 credits; the instrumental majors are 126, so you can see that at some schools, performance majors really take on a lot!
You should definitely ask about additional AP credits and if you S’s grades are a 4 or 5 then you have a valid argument. If the school is only offering a scholarship for 4 years, you can try to negotiate that to cover the 5 years too.</p>
<p>@meekchun, what is your son’s instrument for the performance major?</p>
<p>@iluvpiano, your comment is very impressive.
Even though my S already determined to major cello p., I am still so worry because music life is too hard. Almost no rest. However, he is very confident with his music.</p>
<p>D did get her double performance degrees in 4 years and she did it without taking summer school. She also was able to do more than the minimum requirements in theory, foreign language, chamber music, and orchestra. However total credit hours she received from her AP and college courses taken during high school years is over 30 and she tested out 2 years of theory and 1 year of sight-reading for pianists.</p>
<p>She has a friend who was a double degree in performance and Math in the same school she attended and the term of her friend’s scholarship was 5 years. In a scholarship luncheon, I sat next to one of the music school admistrators, and was told that 25% of the music students are double degree or double major. Therefore it may depend on the school how many years the scholarship will cover.</p>
<p>what school did she double in math and performance?</p>
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<p>If one is from a family where economic resources are unlimited, then there’s no rush at all. I guess it just depends on your situation.</p>
<p>For a student who does not have large family economic resources, time can be very important. If you factor the cost of an extra year as an undergrad student, tuition, living expenses, the opportunity cost of the loss of a year of grad school or career, and then factor that over a 30/40/50 year period til retirment, the cost of that year can be hundreds of thousands of dollars.</p>
<p>If I was a new college student, I would be trying to figure out how to finish my bachelors in less than 4 years, rather than trying to figure out how to get some sort of second undergrad degree. For a well qualified student who is willing to take a full summer school load, a bachelors and a masters isn’t impossible in 4 years or a semester over. I would think that a bachelors and a masters would be more valuable than two bachelors.</p>
<p>@imagep - One thing to consider is that in music one’s experiences during all of college are career building - all the networking - working with other students, working with professors, master classes, concerts, tours, even fundraising events - all of these help build a resume and a financial support structure for the future. I think it is very different than in some other fields - where possibly only the letters of reference and the summer internships are what gives a kid a leg up for an Investment Banking job, for instance.</p>
<p>My son, through his professors, has already had myriad opportunities he couldn’t have had elsewhere. And, my son, through the ensemble he’s co-founded, has had access to fabulous performers on-site with time to rehearse and perform, available rehearsal space at no extra cost, and performance halls - and a ready-made audience . Outside the college environment, all of these things would be more difficult, in terms of money, time, and availability. His ensemble does tour - they play regularly in New York City and elsewhere - but the financial needs for the group are less than they would be without the resources of the college - even though the ensemble is completely independent from the college and receives no direct financial support. In addition, his professors have connections they would struggle to make on their own as new composers/performers/presentors.</p>
<p>In my son’s music path as a composer - it is unimportant if his years of education are leading to a BM, a Masters, a DMA - unless he was rushing to get a teaching job. Much more essential to his having a successful and financially renumerative career is the nurturing and growth of his artistic talents, the opportunities he has to have his work performed and heard, & the network of performers, composers, conductors, presentors, donors and reviewers he forms. This can be achieved as well at the undergraduate level as the doctorate - in the right program.</p>
<p>One more thought considering the second degree - some of my son’s most fervent supporters are professors in his second degree. They, too, add to his network - of course in terms of intellectual growth, but also in opportunities for his musical life, and in expanding both the boundaries of the work itself, and the world in which his work can be appreciated.</p>