Bard Versus UPS - advice?

Paying for College
1

Hoping for some wisdom here… although I think I already know the “right answer.” S has finally narrowed it down to two first choice schools.

School 1, which he prefers, is University of Puget Sound. He had an awesome tour there, loved the campus feel. They have solid programs in his general area of study (he is undeclared, but a social science/humanities guy with strong interest in politics, history, and International Studies). It is closer to home for us - although still a plane ride away, located in an urban area which he likes, and has lots of opportunities to be outdoors and active. He felt he “fit” there.

School 2 is Bard in New York. They offer incredible programs abroad, great academics, a tempting program in NYC - BGIA - that is right up his alley. He liked it a lot, but worries about the weather, the isolated location, and didn’t get the same gut feeling he did at UPS. My take is also that he got to do an overnight at UPS and that helped him feel a lot more connected to students - Bard is still unknown on the part of college life that is social.

What’s the catch? Well, UPS will have a COA of about 35k (20k in merit and another 6k in grant) and Bard has offered 48k in grants (per year) leaving us with about 19k COA. Yep. Big difference.

We have planned to cover our EFC and UPS is still in that range (after he takes out his federal loans). We were shocked at Bard’s offer and it would make it possible for him to graduate without taking out loans AT ALL. It seems a no brainer to me, but based on some CC reviews of Bard I am worried about whether or not it is the right fit for him. We just toured and did not see some of the stuff I had read about. No smoking unfriendly students, beautiful campus, etc… So. We can afford both, but UPS will be painful.

Other schools that come in just under UPS in terms of cost for us are: Beloit, Willamette, Whitman

2

I’m assuming that you are only interested in comparing/contrasting between UPS and Bard, and the other three don’t fit the sweet spot of fit or cost. Believe me, that’s hard, I’m a diehard Whitman fan, but I’ll give it a shot. I have not been to either campus, but from all my reading of college guides and several years hanging out on CC I’ve gotten a general idea of the atmosphere at both schools, and it strikes me that a kid who was crazy about UPS wouldn’t particularly like the other. I think Bard tends to be very counter-culture, hipsterish, left-leaning and politically active. I think there is that contingent at UPS, but also a bigger variety of other types. Small, rural and cold generally means a bonded and close-knit community, so you want to be really sure that it’s a community he’ll thrive in. Have time for an overnight visit? It might be worth the investment. @rayrick knows UPS very well and has been to Bard, let’s see if we can tag him into this discussion.

3

Great idea and interesting comment on the lack of overlap between the two… have to confess I don’t know how to tag @rayrick… although we have chatted before during our visit to UPS and I’d love to hear rayrick’s thoughts. I also loved Whitman, and it isn’t off the table. He liked it, just liked UPS better. Whitman a little small and Walla Walla was pretty remote. Bard doesn’t offer overnights and I think we have used up our East Coast travel. The visit was good, just not as good as UPS.

4

Just typing the @rayrick gives him a notification that he’s been mentioned in this thread, I’m getting a kick out of calling him into consult, he’s got pretty well researched and reasoned opinions.

Whitman isn’t for everyone, I’ll have to face that someday, lol.

5

As much as I like to have an opinion on everything, I have none on UPS, so I can’t be particularly helpful with the OP’s main concern. What’s interesting, though, is the prevailing description of Bard students. The first time we visited the campus, it felt perhaps a bit goth. DS said after going to the accepted students day that “the kids there were way more normal than I thought they’d be”. I think that he found their intellectual proposition to be a very compelling one, but he’s still trying to figure out whether there are enough of “his” people there. (He’s a pretty middle of the road kid whose passions lie more around sports than the arts.) I do know that the school has been improving its athletics over the last few years. Is it possible that having some kids who have that as their preferred self-expression changing the balance of the student body? The threads here are SO negative, yet I have met rather somewhat conventional, highly engaged young people who went there are loved it. Wish there were an easier way than enrolling to get the lowdown.

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I think many people hang on to their gut reaction of a place, then when others ask about it, that is all they know. You can’t blame them for that. I also think though that if your son liked Bard, there is a good reason for that. Maybe he fits there, and at UPS. I do think kids instinctively know when they do or don’t like a school. It seems that your son is primarily worried about the rural location. My feeling, and please someone correct me, is that most students spend most of their time on campus and these colleges all seem to to a great job of providing all kinds of activities.

If money has to be considered and your son liked Bard, it seems a no brainer to me. He should go to Bard. He will find his people.

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@gardenstategal Were you there on Saturday for the accepted student day? We visited on Friday and I wish we had been able to stay. It might have been enough for my kid to get a better feel for the place. I agree about the students. Everyone we met was friendly, nice, engaging. There were kids all over campus that represented all sorts of “types” - we saw athletes, preppy kids, alternative looking kids, etc… I also saw on college niche that Bard gets a bad rating for drug safety and dorms - they don’t tour the dorms so no way to see that on a regular visit. I didn’t see a single student smoking nor any trash/cigarette butts on the ground. A lot of hearsay on this place, but hard to get a good read. Is your S going?

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@latetogame , Yes, S was there (but not me!) on Saturday. He was expecting the visit to confirm that he could take it off the list; the result was exactly the opposite. He really enjoyed talking to faculty – thought they felt very accessible and excited about their work. Apparently, the dorm tours were all over-subscribed, so he didn’t get to see those. Came home saying they’d really put their best foot forward. He’s still very much up in the air, though. All nice options but not so easily compared.

He’s coming from a school that goes out of its way to enroll all “types”, and he’s loved it, so any school that’s really homogeneous feels weird to him. Personally, I am intrigued by Bard, and I find their philosophy of college being about personal transformation a very refreshing alternative to the “your kid will get a job” approach. Of course he will! For the rest of his life!

What about you? Going?

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Yeah… I was intrigued by the Language and Thinking program and system for declaring a major. The whole curriculum feels very well-thought out in a way that is different from other schools. I need to stop reading online college review sites though. They scare me away from ALL schools! He hasn’t decided yet. I am guessing that will happen on April 30th. Still playing with Whitman, Beloit, UPS, and Willamette in addition to Bard.

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@latetogame, you and me both! Every time I read “kids are so unhappy that 10% don’t come back” and start to think – OMG, he’ll hate it there! – I need to remind myself that 90% of them WERE happy enough to come back…

DH’s comment about Bard was “If he picks that one, he’ll be making a statement about what he wants his education to be.” GL to you guys. I think we’re on the April 30 plan as well…

11

Boy, I’m not sure I’m really qualified to venture into these waters, but I can go ahead and offer my take. Bard was one of the first schools I visited with my son. We didn’t have a great reaction, but these things are fluky, and it may have just been one of those days. It was late March, and the place was covered in mud (recall winter before last in New England was epically bad – we got mountains of snow). It was also a chilly, gray day, with intermittent rain. To say that the campus wasn’t showing us its best face just from a conditions standpoint would be putting it mildly. And we did find ourselves latching onto the prevalence of skinny black jeans, dyed hair and partially shaved heads, smokers outside of buildings, etc. Maybe it’s one of those things where, once you start to notice something, you start seeing it everywhere and your perspective gets a little warped? But the fact was that my son, who’s a laid back, jeans and a T-shirt sort of guy (and has never had a piercing, dye-job or non-boring haircut in his life) just didn’t feel terribly at home. But again, I fully acknowledge the possibility that between the crappy conditions and our unfortunate onset of hipster-vision, we may have gotten a bad read on the place. And the other thing that was probably working against us is that all the kids there were also dealing with the dregs of a seemingly interminable winter and a genuinely crummy day, and that’s not conducive to a lot of sunny moods and friendly smiles.

The things I can say pretty objectively about Bard:
It has a reputation for truly outstanding teaching – it gets 99’s (out of 99) for both Professors Interesting and Professors Accessible on Princeton Review.

It has a ton of art majors (roughly 25% of the campus), so that probably contributes to an alternative, artsy vibe.

Its finances have gotten some negative attention recently (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/01/09/donor-dependent-bard-college-faces-future)

Some people love it. @SpiritManager’s son went there, and by all accounts had a terrific experience. She regularly recommends it to kids for whom it seems like it might be a good fit.

The Frank Gehry-designed performing arts center is gorgeous, and their new science center is really nice, too.

Even compared to other LACs in the middle of nowhere, the immediate surroundings of Bard feel very remote. Annandale-on-Hudson has its own zipcode, but the only thing there is Bard. There’s no actual town at all. About 4 miles down the road from the school is the only sign of civilization we saw, the hamlet of Red Hook, that consists of a single intersection with about a block of development in each direction. There’s a couple very nice cafes there, though!

Okay, on to UPS! While my son hasn’t made a final decision, odds are looking good that UPS is where he’s going to end up. From a campus culture/environment standpoint, it appears to be an excellent fit. He loves the Pacific Northwest, he’s very outdoorsy, and the feels-a-bit-like-walking-around-a-food-coop vibe suits him perfectly. He also did an overnight there and was really struck by how open and friendly everyone seemed. The biggest draw for him, though, is it happens to be very strong (for a LAC) in the areas of greatest importance to him: classical music and computer science. He’s actually going back for an accepted students day later this week with my wife (who wants to see the place before she sends her baby clear across the country), and we’ll have an even more informed take at that point.

Things I can say pretty objectively about UPS:
It has an excellent school of music and a fine business program, both relative rarities among liberal arts colleges

It also has a reputation for excellent teaching

It also has beautiful science facilities

Tacoma is not the hoppingest of cities, but it does have a legit downtown, and there’s a couple of developed areas quite close to the UPS campus that have a bunch of shops, restaurants and such. Plus, Seattle is only 45 minutes away.

Mountains!

Anyway, if your son has already done an overnight at UPS, I’m probably not telling you anything you don’t already know. I’m genuinely surprised Bard doesn’t allow overnights. I do think they’re a helpful way to get a better feel for a school, though even then you’re still somewhat at the mercy of who your kid’s host happens to be.

Finally, I can’t help but also offer up some encouraging words about Whitman. I think it’s an absolute gem of a LAC. If it had the particular curriculum strengths my kid really wanted in a school, I think it could have been a great place for him. And, while Walla Walla is quite far from other stuff, Walla Walla itself is cute as can be! It comes close to meeting my platonic ideal of a nice college town.

Well, that’s a heckuva lot of words that probably didn’t really help you all that much. That financial difference is a doozy, and they’re both strong schools. You might try pm’ing spiritmanager. She could give you a much more informed take on Bard.

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My son graduated from Bard two years ago. He got a double degree in Classics and Music Composition. He had a fabulous experience, and doesn’t regret a moment. He’s about to graduate from Yale School of Music, and has taken a number of classes in the various schools at Yale. He thinks his undergrad education at Bard was second to none. We are from the Bay Area. He attended a very large diverse public high school. He was a National Merit Scholar and was admitted to all the schools to which he applied - and he is completely happy he chose Bard. He did not drink, smoke cigarettes or do drugs. He was a varsity baseball player in his Div I high school and briefly played at Bard. He is not a hipster. But he is a bit of a West Coast hippie - still won’t wear a tie, even when Yale demands it and threatens to fine him! He made amazing friends at Bard - with the students, and with the professors. He’s even collaborating with one of the professors on an opera now. He loved the area, and the beauty. He loved his dorms - including the trailer freshman year. He doesn’t love winter. But he loves spring - which he’d never really experienced in the same way coming from California. He has an entirely new sense of the seasons.

As for the stereotypes - I think it’s true that there are lots of passionate intellectual students at Bard who study for the joy of learning, and read all the optional books in addition to the assigned reading, and don’t use Spark notes. All his friends read for fun. And talk about ideas for fun. They have arcane interests that they like to share with each other. They liked to lie on the grass under the stars and discuss Plato. It’s true. And, yes, he had plenty of nerdy friends and they spent hours playing board & card games. However, Bard is not tiny - not all the students there are the same. It is not homogenous. It has a very large international contingent. It now has way more athletes - just in the last few years. It has students from all over the country - not just hipster coastal towns.

Bard is challenging. One must defend one’s choice of major (moderation.) One must write a senior thesis and defend it in front of a panel. And one might not even get accepted to the major of one’s choice, if not deemed good enough, or invested enough. And when one graduates from Bard, it’s with a sense of accomplishment, and a serious education.

Feel free to pm me. Although I’m obviously a booster, I admit Bard is not the right place for every student.

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@rayrick I was typing while you were!

As for towns near Bard - there is a campus shuttle which takes students to the local towns of Red Hook and Tivoli. Tivoli is adorable, with a coffee house, live theater, little shops, cute houses for students. Red Hook has more non-students living there and the hardware store, supermarket, bakeries etc. Along with some terrific restaurants. Then 15 minutes down the road - and I think there is a less regular shuttle to get there, or a friend’s car or Zipcar - is the upscale town of Rhinebeck with its bed and breakfasts, farmer’s market, great restaurants, tempting shops. (This is where Chelsea Clinton got married - in an estate outside of town, and the rehearsal dinner was at one of my favorite restaurants.) Not a college town, but great for parents visiting! Across the river is Kingston, with the malls and the movie theaters, and an old waterfront on the Hudson. Bard does run a weekly shuttle there for shopping, movie going. And, again, zipcar or a friend. Woodstock is up the river, and the town of Hudson. Hiking in the Catskills.

As for being remote - my son went into New York City regularly. It’s a bit of a pain to get to the train station - the one in Poughkeepsie is much cheaper (Metro North) than using the closer Amtrak station. Bard does offer shuttles to the trains stations on the weekends. There were times my son went to NYC every week, even multiple times a week (he had a car at that point!) for rehearsals of his ensemble which was performing in NYC. And other times he’d go once a month or less. But he was always happy to get back to the beauty and peacefulness of the Hudson Valley. The other amazing thing about being in a remote area - no city lights to hide the night sky. Bard is a great place for stargazing!

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I knew I could count on you, @SpiritManager, to eloquently articulate the pro-Bard case :slight_smile: Five years experience >> half-a-day visit.

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@spiritmanager, thank you! So do you think if your son had NOT been into music, he would have liked it so much? Just wondering if a kid who doesn’t have a strong artistic bent would feel at home.

and @rayrick, I think we must have been on that March 2015 tour together. If your son plays sax (something cool and jazzy?), it was you for sure! We were in the area about 6 months later and DS said “since we’re here and the sun is shining, maybe we should look again”, and it was like a different place. I wouldn’t be asking questions now if that hadn’t happened…

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The short answer, @gardenstategal is yes. The professors are amazing - just as much in the social sciences as the arts. He loved his mathematics professors, too. The only area he didn’t take a lot of classes were the hard sciences, so I can’t attest to that. All I can attest to is that Bard tends to hire fantastic professors. I do admit that his favorite non music class at Yale so far has been in paleogeology - and that was not something offered at Bard. There are certain majors where a larger school would be better. But that’s not what you’re wrestling with right now.

Few of my son’s close friends at Bard majored in the arts, actually (unless you count creative writing.) His best friend (and first roommate) got a double major in math and written arts. Many of his friends majored in Asian Studies, Arabic Studies, and French Studies. Dear friends majored in Classics, Political Science, and in History. I don’t think my son gravitated to the music students at all - especially not the majority of the conservatory performance students with whom he actually had little in common. This was the great thing about the required double degree - he got most of his stimulation and inspiration from outside the conservatory.

However, when I think about Bard and its ‘artsy’ reputation - what I think is real is a sense of creativity across the disciplines. Every program from the hard sciences, social sciences, to the arts themselves, are creative, encouraging exploration and curiosity - and not textbook rote learning. Certainly, not 100% of my son’s classes met those high standards - occasionally he found a class where the professor was not as engaging as he’d like, or the students themselves were not as engaged as he would like - but those were the exceptions to the rule. I’d say - in five years, he only had three such classes.

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Thanks, @rayrick and @SpiritManager, I’ve learned a lot. Good luck, @latetogame, sounds like a difficult choice.

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Ooops, I do have one more question for @SpiritManager. You said 5 years, what was the circumstance that kept him there an extra year?

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Our S just returned from admit students day at Bard and left very impressed. Much of what @SpiritManager said is true. He did not recall any of the negatives that seem to overwhelm the college list publications. Very engaging student body. Enthused profs in the photog and Human Rights departments. Many genuine and at least serious sounding clubs at the open house venue. Looks like they are working at improving food services with Chartwell now. Actually did tour the Toasters dorms and was pleased. Of course most all of them nowadays are coed including the bathrooms. The weekend was cold but weather o/w pleasant unlike what @rayrick experienced. Loves the beauty and serenity of Hudson Valley. Yes. Red hook Rhinebeck Tivoli and Kingston all have something to offer as a right mix. After all how often does a student need to leave campus anyway… And the possibility of a twice semester excursion into NYC is easy enough. It’s Bard Pitzer or Oberlin… Will know soon enough…! S may actually choose Bard over Oberlin. Yet Obie offered a sizable merit scholarship. Bard …none.

20

Want to add that he left Bard most impressed by Pres. Lein Botstein’s conversational and very candid address to the attendants. Capped off the visit with attending Bard’s “Ton” orchestra performance of Handel’s Messiah. It was incredible and the Gehry Fisher Center alone was “an artful & crazy experience”…