<p>Wow – for all the defensiveness here, my DD had some similar complaints. She was an engish major, and found the department to feel VERY small and somewhat limiting by her senior year. She felt like there was a heavy emphasis on poetry (not her thing so much) and a number of very specific requirements for the major and that she hadn’t focused on that enough as an incoming freshman. Beyond the nine ways of knowing, she found that the department had a number of requirements that were very limiting, since there was often only one course available each semester to fulfill a particular requirement. In fairness, she went abroad one semester through a different school – it was a great experience, but she found it was tough when she returned to fit in all the remaining requirements for her major. She also mentioned that sometimes she would try to register for a CC class when Barnard registration opened, only to find out that the CC application period for the class had already closed…She also interned while at school and found it very very demanding to juggle everything since Barnard doesn’t grant any credits for interning as some other schools do… I agree that it is helpful for incoming students to go in with eyes wide open. I sensed there were many great things at Barnard – know that it is a very rigorous school that is also quite small – check the requirements of potential majors and how many upper level courses are available – don’t just look at freshman courses – good advice for anyone?!</p>
<p>
Were these some sort of specialty courses? I’m asking because your description runs exactly opposite as described by Barnard and Columbia (and my daughter) … when she registered she looked at a course listing which was a super set of Barnard and Columbia courses which were mixed together within a discipline and no difference in signing up for the courses in the two schools.</p>
<p>I think that some courses at both Barnard and Columbia require that the student also apply for permission from the professor to take the course – I know that this was a process my daughter had to go through to sign up for her required colloquium courses at Barnard. </p>
<p>Submission of those applications take place outside of the computerized enrollment system – that is, to take a particular course, the student has to do both: sign up online, AND complete whatever application process is set by the instructor.</p>
<p>It is the student’s responsibility to find out what the requirements are for each specific course. Generally that information will be included in the course listing. </p>
<p>My DD is the most pro-active person I have ever met, and also refuses to take “no” for an answer, so these would not have been issues for her. </p>
<p>It is possible to get some credits related to an internship – see [Internships</a> | Barnard College](<a href=“http://barnard.edu/cd/students/jobs/internships]Internships”>http://barnard.edu/cd/students/jobs/internships) – my daughter got independent study credit in the fall of her sophomore year in relation to an internship she completed over the previous summer. I know that she worked with a faculty member and had to write a paper - but it was only for 1 point of credit. It was tied in with the grant she had received from Barnard to do the internship. </p>
<p>My DD felt that Barnard was more rigorous than other colleges (including Columbia) and that Barnard was very challenging academically. That’s what she was looking for in a college. </p>
<p>My d. also studied abroad, but she took some of the required courses for her major ahead of time in order to prepare for that. She opted to take a heavy course load her sophomore year, including enrolling in one of the required colloquia for her major. (Typically colloquia are taken during junior year, followed by a thesis course senior year). </p>
<p>If anyone is curious as Barnard’s English course offerings, you could go to the web site here:
[Courses</a> for English | Barnard College](<a href=“http://barnard.edu/catalogue/department/engb/courses]Courses”>http://barnard.edu/catalogue/department/engb/courses)</p>
<p>As a quick exercise to get a sense of what a single semester might look like for an upper level student, simply do a search on that page for all 3000 level courses in a particular semester. Major requirements are here: [English</a> | Barnard College](<a href=“http://barnard.edu/department/english/requirements]English”>http://barnard.edu/department/english/requirements)</p>
<p>Faculty listed here (to get a sense of the overall size of the department): [English</a> | Barnard College](<a href=“http://barnard.edu/catalogue/department/engb]English”>http://barnard.edu/catalogue/department/engb)</p>
<p>^ that scenario makes sense … and the permission requirement would be the same for students from either school I presume.</p>
<p>I think it is a natural tendency for parents (myself included) to over-extrapolate from the (second-hand, as-reported/dribbled in) information they glean from their kids. </p>
<p>IMO, any perceived “defensiveness” may have been derived in part from that, but perhaps moreso as a reaction to the very title of this thread, which struck me as, perhaps unintentionally, a tad inflammatory.</p>
<p>It’s possible that, if put on the witness stand and grilled, it might turn out that some of these kids created their own limitations, or didn’t do what they needed to do to get around them. As was,IMO, insinuated here.</p>
<p>I find it also plausible that there are actually some limitations that some particular kids encountered but other people’s kids didn’t happen to, based on their differing particular interests.</p>
<p>I find it plausible that OPs kid couldn’t take the visual arts course She wanted and still do the internships She wanted. While other kids, with different course and internship interests, did not experience a conflict.</p>
<p>I find it plausible that some Columbia classics courses require certain courses from The Core as prerequisites.</p>
<p>Does Barnard have a requirement for total credits that have to be taken at Barnard? (ie not at Columbia). And do some Barnard majors have major requirements where a significant number of the courses have to be taken at Barnard? (ie not at Columbia). (I recall posts from Columbia students that certain major courses there could not be filled by Barnard courses, but I don’t know if the reverse is also true.)
If so, these could create a situation where the limited offerings at Barnard could be a factor for some students. No different than any other LAC though, and at least here you have Columbia for tons of options to fill free electives.</p>
<p>Not sure what is meant here by “rigorous”, but FWIW, my D2 did NOT find courses at Barnard to be more rigorous or more challenging academically than her courses at the university she subsequently attended. She found the coursework and level to be basically the same. But she didn’t take the same courses at both places, obviously. A lot depends on the particular professor.</p>
<p>And IIRC a lot of courses at my Arts &Sciences college were four credits, not three. The normal course load for “Artsies” was four courses. (Whereas engineering courses were more often three credits and engineers took five courses). But that was “back in the day”, I don’t really k now where this stands now, elsewhere. I find it to be a reasonable “heads up” point for people coming in without AP credits to investigate and compare. Though I don’t know if they will actually find much difference. But bear in mind, it’s possible that the courses that are four credits actually require more work!</p>
<p>As for the housing, Barnard’s situation as a city school does have some implications. Both good and bad. But why these aren’t obvious to anyone at the outset I’m not sure.</p>
<p>I do not recall D2 complaining about registration.</p>
<p>Barnard has a high retention rate overall, IIRC, so apparently it can’t be doing everything wrong. But that doesn’t mean it is perfect for everybody. Or that people coming in should expect it to be. It has its strong points and weaker points. Like everyplace else.</p>
<p>It’s all a balancing game, in the end.</p>
<p>
Except for Columbia, my daughter’s only metric of comparison was looking at her academic experience vs. that of friends attending other colleges. So she could be mistaken, or perhaps that’s too small of a sample to draw conclusions. As to Columbia, she simply felt that the courses she took there were somewhat easier overall-- part of this may be level and intensity of writing requirements for classes. It is probably something closely tied to her own major and the courses she was taking. She did have friends with the same major as hers at Columbia, and it’s clear that the requirements for that particular major are more stringent at Barnard, because of the Barnard colloquia and senior thesis requirements. </p>
<p>But I raised that point because it seems that the underlying tone of the the OP’s complaint was that Barnard was too tough: too many courses required, too difficult to fit them all in; too hard to find time for internships; and too hard to figure out the ins and outs of getting into some Columbia classes. </p>
<p>I don’t like the title of this thread either – instead of “fact or fiction” it really should have said something like “not a good fit for everyone.” That may be too obvious a concept, but it does seem like the OP was looking for a more nurturing and supportive environment. I do think that the overall culture at Columbia is very competitive, and a lot of that spills over onto Barnard. I mean, this is a campus filled with very smart, very focused, very ambitious and self-motivated students. There isn’t much in the way of handholding and probably not a lot of leeway for students who falter along the way. There are an abundance of support resources for Barnard students, but they may have to take affirmative steps to find them.</p>
<p>That’s why I said “Not sure what you mean”, didn’t know if you meant the actual individual courses (which was not D2s experience) or something else about the program, ie the requirements.</p>
<p>I forgot about the thesis requirement. This is something applicants should give some real consideration to. There are not many colleges, as far as I’m aware, where a senior thesis is required. I’ve seen it (or an equivalent) more often offered as an elective. I’ve also seen it where the opportunity is rationed, offered only to students of high enough academic standing that there is a chance they could go to grad school. (though the qualification standards aren’t phrased that way, it’s just my interpretation).</p>
<p>A senior thesis can be a great experience, and if done well can help grease the doors to grad schools and even potential employers. But not everyone wants to do one. It changes the nature of one’s senior year (eg, in D1s case,[not at Barnard] it made it very stressful), and reduces the number of “regular” courses you would take instead. </p>
<p>D2 did know about the requirement, and was fine about doing one at Barnard. But the fact is, when she had a choice to do one or not at her subsequent school she chose not to. She was not that passionate about one particular thing, and there was so much else she wanted to learn. And she did not have plans to go to a research-oriented grad school program.</p>
<p>Barnard’s approach of making the senior thesis a cumpulsory requirement, rather than an option, does indeed represent a real distinguishing feature. These endeavors are indeed rigorous. At least the one I observed second-hand was. Applicants should carefully consider whether they view the lack of an option in this regard as a benefit to themselves (because then they will definitely get to do one). Or not (because, down the road, it may turn out that they’d actually rather NOT do one, and spend more time on something else).</p>
<p>The “option” approach is more the norm by far, from what I’ve seen.</p>
<p>Monydad, I don’t think the senior thesis is required in all Barnard majors, but it is definitely something to consider. My daughter spent the first 3 years of college dreading it, and her senior year absolutely loving it – so it’s a valuable experience. She really immersed herself in her project and had a great relationship with her thesis advisor. She opted for a very light academic schedule senior year – her spring semester all she had was her 4-point thesis class and couple of dance classes because she needed to be enrolled at least half-time for financial aid. (I think Barnard has now eliminated the option for seniors to drop down to less than full time their senior year to save money on tuition - but in my daughter’s case, it didn’t make a difference financially, as her Barnard grant was adjusted down to match the reduce COA). </p>
<p>But I do think that the majors which do not require a thesis probably have roughly equivalent alternative requirements, and that is probably part of my daughter’s perspective on academic rigor. It seems to me that by junior year, many student have reached their comfort level in meeting the requirements in regular academic classes, so the colloquia and the senior thesis add new challenge. </p>
<p>Anyway, my point isn’t to try to rank or compare colleges, but just to make it clear that Barnard can present a very challenging and demanding environment. As a parent, that’s a plus factor for me, not a negative – we had much less expensive alternatives for undergrad tuition to choose from, and I’d rank Barnard/Columbia pretty low on the scale of “fun” or “party school.” </p>
<p>I don’t think its a bad thing if a student is looking for a more relaxed and nurturing academic environment overall – it’s just that we had more cost-effective options if my daughter had wanted that. So again, it’s really a matter of “fit”. I’d tend to recommend Barnard for students who are serious about academics, strongly self-reliant and goal-oriented.</p>