Barnard College Fact and Fiction from Parent of a Senior

Colleges and Universities A-Z Barnard College
1

<p>As the parent of a Barnard Senior, I thought I would share a few things that I wish had been clear to us when our DD was deciding on Barnard – things that were never clear from campus visits or extensive info sessions.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Barnard gives you the advantages of a small liberal arts college inside a big university??
We have discovered that in many instances, you can get the disadvantages of both more than the upsides. In many areas, the number of course offerings and choices is very small (small liberal arts college) but the bureaucracy associated with Columbia is unsupportive and very difficult to navigate. Course registration and choice after freshman year can be extremely cumbersome and stressful for the students – made more so by trying to incorporate classes from the other schools to round out the tiny number of selections at Barnard.</p></li>
<li><p>Girls can take many many courses at Columbia? In reality, our daughter has found that there are plenty of Columbia professors that openly express disdain for Barnard girls. More important, she has tried to take Columbia courses that don’t list specific prerequisites only to be told on enrolling that one element or another of Columbia’s common core IS in fact required before being able to take the class. Bottom line? Many Columbia courses end up not being workable options for Barnard students. This is a biggy that I wish had been honestly addressed when we were making our decision as a family…</p></li>
<li><p>Being at a small liberal arts college will create a cozier, more secure residential environment? Not after Freshman year. Many of the housing options after Freshman year are far from campus and/or are in dirty, aging buildings sorely in need of repair and renovation. What you see for residential living in the quad when you tour the school as a prospective student is NOT what you are going to get when you move into upperclassmen housing, unless you want to stay in the quad on a meal plan and live with freshman as an upperclassman. Yes New York is New York, but Barnard’s housing is aging and aging fast. The building that our daughter lived in on 110th street sophomore year was really not fit for student housing.</p></li>
<li><p>Fact: This school is extremely tough on kids coming in without AP credits. Because of the way Barnard downgrades course credits for course work taken elsewhere (study abroad, summer courses elsewhere, etc.), a student like our DD who came in without AP credits will find that she has to take a very intensive course load every single semester of her college career in order to graduate on time – often having to choose courses based more on credit assignment than on genuine interest or area of study.</p></li>
<li><p>Kiss your interest in visual art goodbye if you want to intern during school and/or you aren’t majoring in the subject. Our DD had a passion for visual arts coming in to Barnard. The only course offerings are generally 5-6 hour long studio blocks, which are virtually impossible to work into a schedule for students needing to take a variety of other courses, especially if they want to intern at all during the school year. Small, 1 or 2 credit art classes are not available for students who don’t want to major in the subject but just want to continue their interest…</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I wish to offer a different perspective from that of mshapiro. My daughter is a junior who is majoring in Political Science and minoring in 2 or 3 other subjects. She did have 9 AP credits to start with, which is far better than none. Having said that I wish to say that our daughters are far more resilient than we give them credit for. Her freshman dorm room in the quad was a little over 100 sq. feet for her and her roommate. My wife and I looked at each other and quietly thought how anybody can live in such an old (built in 1906) and dingy room, especially after her beautifully painted and decorated room in our house. She thought it was fantastic! It must be that the keys to the room were hers and not ours. Her sophomore residence off campus was above a Chinese restaurant was larger but in far worse shape for 6 women with only one bathroom. Unbelievably both her and her other roommates thought this too was fantastic. Once again, it must be those 19 year old genes versus our soon to be senior citizen blue plate special genes. I then realized through the fog of years past that we too must have loved our college homes. The fact that our parents must have cringed made it even better!
Let’s talk registration for classes. According to my daughter, excluding certain core class requirements for Columbia graduation and 9 way of knowing requirements for Barnard graduation, she said it could not be easier. Priority is given by seniority and requirements for graduation first. She was never excluded from a class because she is from Barnard and the class is offered at Columbia and vice versus. It is a modified form of first come first served. Between the various colleges at Columbia University and Barnard we are talking hundred if not thousands of options. Yes, she said, it can be a daunting task, but no different than any other college with these amounts of classes. The biggest problem she found was that not every course she wanted was offered every year or every semester. She needed to match what she wanted to do, with what was offered and when it was offered. Stressful yes, but this is par for the course at most schools. A little anecdote; my daughter wanted to take a Constitutional Law class at Columbia taught by a very prestigious professor. The class was both very small by design and mainly for seniors. She was put on a waitlist. She showed up for the first day of class anyway and after class asked the professor if he was going to teach this same class next year. His reply was, as long as he is still alive. I guess he was impressed enough that she showed up, despite being on the waitlist that he made room for her and other women from Barnard that also showed up a few days later. Needless to say, this made her day, week, and year! Any problem with signing up for classes at Columbia was more of a problem with logistics than anything else.
I was initially skeptical of an all girls College and how this relationship with Columbia would work. All I can say from our perspective is that my daughters experience could not have been any better! What an incredibly unique relationship that Barnard and Columbia have together. A small Liberal Arts College inside of a big research University. She loves her school, New York City, and even her housing. Too be young again!</p>

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<p>I do appreciate the perspective offered by mshapiro, but have some things to add:</p>

<p>-My D went in knowing (and it was only reinforced as she continued at Barnard) that, for her major any way, Barnard’s classes were superior to those offered at Columbia. So she never really struggled with trying to take more at Columbia…</p>

<p>-

Not sure where anyone ever was told that it would be “cozier, more secure”. Well, more secure maybe. The last three years of her time at Barnard, my D lived at Plimpton in a suite-style set up. yes it was “cozy” and not all that new (though her last year they had a renovated suite, which was really nice), but it was in NYC and for that city, was really great. If someone wants to actually LIVE in that city, the space one can afford will not usually be all that generous! As for safety, though, we ALWAYS felt that Barnard’s administration went out of their way to alert students to any ongoing issues, and we always felt DD was safer walking around that city than we would have if she’d been in our own city (Atlanta). She loved her housing situations all four years there.</p>

<p>As for course credit, etc: we studied the policies with great interest going in and D was excited at first to not have to take any more math, and to not have to take more than one single year of a lab science. But, one thing you might not be told about Barnard: young women are liable to take a dramatic turn in what they wish to pursue. Shortly into her first semester at Barnard, my D decided she loved neuroscience. She took EXTRA semesters of various sciences (including organic chemistry) AND extra math courses. She is currently working on her PhD. So yeah, watch out for Barnard.</p>

4

<p>You can take whatever you want at Columbia. I honestly don’t look at where the course is offered. I want it - I take it. Also, I’m not sure professors know which school you come from.
It is true, however, that Barnard is hard on those without prior credit. Add to that that if you are on financial aid, you cannot take summer courses because they won’t finance it, and you have a very heavy course load indeed. Besides, one can have a hard time looking for easy classes.</p>

<p>New York is generally a dirty, small, and not a very cozy place. But then again, you don’t come to NYC for that, you come for a whole lot of other opportunities.
Not really accessible for internationals, but doable for citizens/residents.</p>

<p>I have to weigh in on art classes. Very few are on Fridays, the generally accepted day for internships. </p>

<p>The bad-bad-bad part, at least for internationals, is being a STEM major. Research is funded by NSF and other restrictive to non-citizens organizations, so you are massively out of luck there.</p>

<p>But my question to mshapiro is, if your family hated it so badly through the entire four years, why haven’t your daughter transferred to somewhere more acceptable? I certainly have a friend who was here on full financial aid who transferred after her freshman year.</p>

5

<p>I find much of what mshapiro posted hard to believe-- I think perhaps her daughter had an unusual major or narrow set of interests.</p>

<ol>
<li> My daughter never had any difficulty or barriers to taking classes at Columbia, and took Columbia courses in all but her senior year, when she simply was more focused on her Barnard major and wanted to take some classes from her favorite profs.</li>
</ol>

<p>My d. often involved me in the course selection process – that is, she would ask my opinion on whether she should sign up for course X or course Y, or ask me to help her find a class in specific time slot to fill a particular Barnard requirement. So I really am familiar as to what was available to her and there was never any barrier whatsoever for Columbia requirements. </p>

<p>Nor was there every any difficulty in finding Barnard courses. Certainly I can see that it could have been an issue if she had chosen an unusual major – but that was one of the things we checked when she was applying to colleges. We very definitely looked at department resources in the specific areas she was interested in studying, at every college she considered applying to and attending. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>My daughter did enter Barnard with about 12 AP Credits – the equivalent of about 1 semester - but she dropped down to a minimal course load her last semester, taking only 6 points (her Senior Thesis class and a couple of dance classes). Were it not for the senior thesis requirement, she could have graduated a semester early (and probably would have, for financial reasons). So its hard for me to believe that students without APs need to take overly intensive course loads – obviously the APs provide a nice cushion. She averaged about 14 points per semester- the greatest course load was 18 points. </p></li>
<li><p>My d. lived on 110th St her senior year and was absolutely delighted to be there, where she had her own, single apartment. Both sophomore & junior years she was assigned to housing directly across the street from Barnard. I did notice that the building on 110th is obviously not exclusively student housing – it is an apartment building and there were other adults living in the building who clearly were not students - but we had never been led to believe anything different. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>There ARE some problems with post-first year housing in terms of the assignment system – my daughter ended up on waitlists two out of three years because she wasn’t able to get the housing she preferred during the regular signup process. But part of her problem was that she was holding out for a single; if she had been willing to take a double then there would have been more options. </p>

<ol>
<li>I don’t know what this statement means: " Because of the way Barnard downgrades course credits for course work taken elsewhere (study abroad, summer courses elsewhere, etc.), " – my daughter studied abroad and was given full, unit-to-unit credit for all courses taken. She even got a bonus because she ended up earning 3 extra points for a studio art course she had audited and which had not been pre-approved by Barnard before the study abroad. So I don’t know of any “downgrading” – aside from the art course, my d. used the study abroad semester to also complete some of the course requirements for her major. So no barriers there either. </li>
</ol>

<p>I am wondering how much familiarity the OP actually has with the course enrollment system and Barnard’s academic program, because so much of what is written just doesn’t ring true. I wonder if she had direct information or is simply relying on what her daughter told her, and if the problem is is more with her daughter’s attitude than Barnard’s actual offerings. </p>

<p>I have seen colleges where there is difficulty in getting chosen classes, so I am not in denial. Barnard was refreshing by comparison to the schools my son attended precisely because my daughter didn’t run into those sorts of barriers. There were 2 times in 4 years that she wanted to enroll in classes that were full - she did get into the classes, but she had to go to the professors for permission. </p>

<p>Anyway, color me skeptical. The opening post just doesn’t ring true. I’m thinking maybe the d. has not been completely forthright with the parent about some of the choices she made along the way.</p>

6

<p>My daughters also went to a different Barnard than the one attended by mshapiro’s daughter.
1.They took many classes at Barnard, but their advanced classes were at Columbia (Art History and Film Studies). This would have been different if they had taken if they were Architecture majors, based at Barnard. The registration for classes was exactly the same on the same website for either side of the street. As Adversa describes the students don’t even think about where the course is. They pick the course they want.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Most of the classes in the upper division were at Columbia. My daughters never experienced any disdain from Columbia professors. Three out of the four letters of recommendation for Grad school were from Columbia Profs. They don’t remember the Core being a prerequisite for any of their classes.</p></li>
<li><p>Housing at Barnard is better than at Columbia for the upper classes although that is not saying much. In comparison to the rest of NYC the housing is a bargain. My daughters lived in Plimpton, 110th and Cathedral Gardens among other dorms. The first two are about 1/3 of a mile from campus but certainly doable. </p></li>
<li><p>The required course load of 122 credits is doable with 15 credits per semester and two PE classes. There is no need to overload. However even with AP credits the usual problem with Barnard students is to get them not to take too many. Our younger entered with 9 AP credits and finished with about 145, 20 in the last semester. (OK, one of the classes was an easy A and was heavily populated with cute guys, jocks.</p></li>
<li><p>Both daughters took studio classes: drawing for the Art History major and photography for Film Studies major. Columbia and Barnard pay for many of the off site classes. (Nude Drawing on the university’s dime?) Some of these, especially the photography, can be accomplished in a weekend rather than using school days.</p></li>
</ol>

7

<p>I think that any 4-year degree program requires completion of at least 120 semester units. Since Barnard also requires 2 PE courses (and credits those toward the degree) – the OP’s complaint really makes no sense. That is, the student would encounter the same requirements anywhere. </p>

<p>My daughter did feel that Barnard is a very rigorous school & that she had to work hard in all of her classes. There didn’t seem to be much opportunity to take “gut” or easy courses. So I can see where it could be a problem for a student who has difficulty with the academic demands. It could be difficult to catch up if a student fell behind at some point.</p>

<p>I’m actually somewhat curious about the OP’s claim that her daughter was told that some element of Columbia’s core was a prerequisite for any class – I’ve never seen any Columbia course listing the core as a prerequisite, and given the core content it doesn’t make a lot of sense. So I’d wonder what particular courses were denied to the daughter. </p>

<p>There are some introductory level courses at Barnard which Columbia students are not allowed to take for credit because their content is duplicative of the core – so even if there was an expectation that a student taking a course had already been exposed to Core content (for example, being familiar with books included in the lit hum syllabus) - it is not as if that grounding is inaccessible to Barnard students. </p>

<p>Actually, the account the OP gave is strange in any case – she says that her daughter “tried” to take Columbia courses but was told “on enrollment” that there was some sort of core requirement – but that doesn’t make a lot of sense, given how course enrollment works. Either she gets into the course or she doesn’t - I don’t think that students are disenrolled because of unpublished prerequisites. (It has the ring of an excuse a student might give to a parent who is trying to push her into courses she doesn’t want to take).</p>

8

<p>For prospective students reading this thread my daughter who just graduated from Barnard, similar to Mardad’s daughter, apparently attended a different Barnard than the OP’s daughter.</p>

<p>For my my daughter the cross registration process with Columbia was one of the biggest bennies of being at Barnard … during registration the students look at a joint listing of both school’s courses and just pick courses. I do not doubt the OP’s story but it is so different than my daughter’s experience I wonder if the courses which his daughter had issues with were some type of specialty courses which brought the prereq issues into play.</p>

<p>My daughter also lived at 110th for a couple years. She loved it … can’t say I thought it was great but my vote didn’t count. It was much more like living in an older apartment than a dorm but that was what my daughter preferred. I once mentioned the walk though a few blocks of the city to get to the “dorm” from campus … and my daughter’s response … “Dad, it’s actually close to campus, isn’t this much closer to campus than your dorm was to classes at your school?” And the answer was, yes it probably is twice as close … the radically different location makes it feel different to me … but that is me.</p>

<p>Barnard is great example of why schools should be visited. It is what it is and it’s pretty apparent when you see it. Personally, I love traditional college campuses in a college town with quads and folks hanging in their dorms … Barrnard’s campus and location did NOTHING for me. But I was not the prospective student … for my daughter I knew half way through the tour my daughter was in love … and she loved her four years there.</p>

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</p>

<p>In 1981, Barack Obama lived a couple of blocks away at 142 109th Street – see: [You</a> Can Live in Barack Obama’s Old New York Apartment for $1900/Month](<a href=“http://gawker.com/5557896/you-can-live-in-barack-obamas-old-new-york-apartment-for-1900month/]You”>http://gawker.com/5557896/you-can-live-in-barack-obamas-old-new-york-apartment-for-1900month/)</p>

<p>Outside of the school year and in the years since, my daughter has lived in apartments east Harlem, Washington Heights, and in Bed-Stuy in Brooklyn. She loves her spacious (by NY standards) Brooklyn apartment as do I, but the building certainly is old and could use some renovation. [Which, from my daughter’s current perspective would be a bad thing - a landlord who renovates is also likely to ask for increased rent. My d. is rather delighted to be paying half of $1500 to live in a shared, 2-bedroom apartment a block from the A train and an easy commute to her job in midtown Manhattan)</p>

<p>

I do doubt the parts about the course registration and enrollment, because it simply doesn’t match what I know to be the actual process. For example, the OP wrote that course selection is cumbersome and stressful because of the difficulty in “trying to incorporate classes from the other schools to round out the tiny number of selections at Barnard.” But there is no separation of the Barnard course listings from Columbia – all the enrollment is done through one system on eBear and if a student looks for a course listings in a particular subject or department, they are going to see them all mixed together. Anyone can verify this by going to [CU</a> Directory of Classes](<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/bulletin/uwb/]CU”>CU Directory of Classes) – </p>

<p>The only difference the student will typically see is with the course labeling – the Barnard course are labeled “BC” – the interfaculty courses are labeled “W” or “V”. (Its rare to see a course labeled with a “C” for Columbia College – I can only find that for Core courses and for Seminar/Thesis courses for Columbia seniors within the departments they are majoring in. </p>

<p>I don’t doubt that the OP believes what she wrote to be true. I just think that she is reflecting her daughter’s subjective perception, not the actual reality.</p>

<p>Given the combination of complaints about course registration, intensive courseload, supposed “downgrading” of course credits from study abroad or other transferred classes – I get the impression that the student was overwhelmed by the academic demands. I certainly can see that happening – for example, a student who wanted to pursue a math or science major but enrolled without having completed advanced courses in high school would face additional requirements in classes. That is where the lack of AP preparation could be a problem - not because of the lack of credit for units, but because for many students that could mean an extra year of preparatory math or science courses just to be ready to take the courses that other students enrolled in as freshmen. </p>

<p>But these aren’t Barnard-specific factors --these are factors that a student would encounter at most of the colleges that are at the high end of selectivity. </p>

<p>I do wonder whether the OP’s daughter’s lack of AP’s may indicate that she came from a high school that did not provide full preparation for Barnard. Perhaps there are other reasons --but I can definitely how those sorts of difficulties could put extra burdens on a student through all 4 years of college. It’s just that, under those circumstances, the students across the street at Columbia would probably fare even worse – at least Barnard students have more flexibility in course choice their first two years, while the Columbia students need to complete the core.</p>

10

<p>I suspect that the OP’s daughter’s focus on visual arts might’ve been the reason she had such difficulty finding courses. I cannot comment but sympathize if she had problems because of that. As a humanities person, there were so many classes I wanted to take that I couldn’t find time for. (I’m a Barnard grad.) Both Barnard and Columbia had a big selection of stuff I was interested in. Sometimes people with small or specific majors have difficulty finding courses, but even my friends with self-created or special majors managed to do it. I cannot comment on science courses because I only took the required two semesters, but if you are a humanities kind of lady, you will not have difficulty adding courses. It’ll be harder, I assume, to take them away.</p>

<p>As for Columbia, none of my professors commented on Barnard women or treated me differently because of it. I got good grades and good feedback when I did well (and criticism when I needed improvement) accordingly. I didn’t suspect any bias. This is not to say there is NEVER any bias, because I’m sure there is, but I did not experience it. I also took a Barnard-tilted course load every year, just by chance, though I was exposed to a number of Columbia professors and TAs.</p>

<p>Finally what I want to rebuke is the housing situation. Yeah, some of the buildings are worn out and a little bit crumbly in places. WELCOME TO NEW YORK. Unless you are in a brand new building (which I was in my senior year, which was nice), you are most likely not going to be a squeaky-clean environs. Virtually all affordable housing for students and other members of the community in New York is a little raggedy. It’s nice to have a nice place, but you can’t always get it.</p>

11

<p>It has been a while since I’ve checked these posts – I see many somewhat frustrated and angry replies, so I thought I’d clarify a few points.</p>

<p>First, when DD was at Barnard, she did have some excellent professors and learned a great deal. The points in my original post were to clarify experiences she had that, had she known more at the time when she was choosing among some great schools, SHE says may have influenced her to choose differently. So the point of posting is to put that info out there for people to consider.</p>

<p>She came from a very fine independent high school and was quite well prepared to attend Barnard (where she was also an A student). BUT, her high school didn’t give AP credits. Period. Folks who replied here all had kids with AP credits. IF you arrive at Barnard without AP credits, you will need to take a minimum of 5 classes every single semester throughout your four years in order to graduate on time unless you attend summer school (and when you do so, Barnard will downgrade those credits). Barnard is a rigorous school, but to a fault in awarding only 3 credits for almost every humanities course offered no matter the intensity, work load, etc. Multiples of 3? You will need to take five courses every semester while your classmates with APs will not. True anywhere? No – my other child attended NYU with a very different credit policy, and this was not an issue. All I’m saying is that it is something to be aware of given the way Barnard awards course credits.</p>

<p>As for difficulty with enrolling in Columbia courses? Trying to enroll in classics courses or ancient history courses often led to DD being closed out because of not having taken the Core as a required pre-requisite. Folks who replied this couldn’t really be an issue likely were dealing with non-humanities departments. As a senior, she was closed out of seminar options in several Columbia departments because of an enrollment application policy that was not communicated to Barnard students (and yes, this was a student on top of all those little details…). Finally, her humanities department was very small – so small that by her senior year she really struggled to find things to take. It seemed “bigger” when she looked at it as a high school senior. Though you may change majors and it is a long way off, try to look at upper level courses when you are considering the school – a good idea anywhere you are looking!</p>

<p>As for housing, yes it is New York. No one expects the Plaza. As a parent, I resented move in day sophomore, junior and senior years when I was helping to scrub dirt out of apartment units that were not prepared for move-in, and watching DD fill out endless forms to deal with broken furniture, non functioning appliances, broken toilets, etc., etc. etc. Not strangers to NYC – familiar with the drill – that being said, I think their budget is stretched perilously thin and housing suffers.</p>

<p>Finally, for prospective students who want to intern while in school – this was one of the core reasons DD chose to attend Barnard rather than some other schools – the ability to have access to internships in the city during the school year. Wherever you attend school, this imposes a HUGE restriction on your course scheduling and is a very difficult thing to juggle. At Barnard, where course options can be limited and where no credit is given for interning AND courses are typically only 3 credits in the humanities, DD found it to be tremendously stressful to try to do both. Yes, in fairness, juggling a lot would be stressful at any school – her point was that she felt Barnard made hard situations even harder. IF you have your heart set on interning in NYC while you are in school, you may find NYU to be a better choice in being able to create a workable schedule.</p>

<p>There are many fine things about Barnard – submission here is to try to help young women considering among schools another inside perspective…</p>

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<p>My DD had no difficulty registering for any Columbia courses and told me the professors didn’t know who was Columbia and who was Barnard. She went to hear oral arguments at the Supreme Court as the only Barnard student in a Columbia legal history course. She also took a Riman history course. Barnard and Columbia professors both wrote recommendations that were instrumental in earning her acceptance into a Legal History PhD.</p>

<p>I suspect a ■■■■■.</p>

13

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</p>

<p>to the OP:
Angry? Nope. Frustrated? Maybe…but that is because you titled this thread “Barnard College Fact and Fiction…” and then proceeded to describe situations that no other Barnard student or parent of a Barnard student on these boards has apparently ever encountered. Perhaps your daughter’s situation was somewhat unique due to her choice of major, and I am sorry for that. I suspect that she might have encountered that same limited choice in classes in any other college as well, though. </p>

<p>Again, nobody here is angry…just trying to clarify that what you call “fact” does not fit with the reality at Barnard that we have all experienced, either as students or as parents of students.</p>

14

<p>Mythmom, I don’t think the poster is a “■■■■■” – I get the sense of an over-controlling mom who is disappointed that the daughter chose not to take more courses at Columbia, together with a daughter who probably gave the mom various false excuses for her choices and/or academic struggles. Since we only have the mom’s account, we can’t know whether the daughter was struggling and complaining, or whether the daughter was just giving excuses in response to the mom’s nagging. </p>

<p>I get the sense of over-controlling from the mom’s comments about helping her daughter move in all 4 years, and “scrubbing dirt” out of the apartments. I find it odd that there would be much parental help at move-in day after the first year. The “scrubbing dirt” description sounds like the words of an obsessive neatnik. I can see that perspective (my own mom was that type) – but I think that reflects an unreasonable expectation for a college dorm room – and again, too much parental hovering. </p>

<p>There’s also a clue in the reference to enrolling in “seminar options” at Columbia - because those type of courses generally require approval by the professor with a preference for students in the major. So yes it would be difficult for a student from another school or even another department in the same school to take those courses, but it would have nothing to do with the core, though that wouldn’t excuse a student from getting appropriate preparation from other courses. Just about everything in Columbia’s core can be duplicated in various intro courses at Barnard - it would be the Barnard student’s responsibility to take the appropriate courses to prepare for advanced work in some subjects. </p>

<p>Many people habitually blame others for their own omissions or failings. A reference to being “closed out” of classes because of “an enrollment application policy that was not communicated to Barnard students” is a good example: in plain English, the daughter could not get into the class because she didn’t complete the required application, information that probably would be obtained by reading the course description or which would be on the department web site. </p>

<p>I would say that someone with that mindset probably shouldn’t come to Barnard – I definitely had the impression that Barnard is a place for independent minded, internally driven, self sufficient young women. The Barnard/Columbia environment also seems to be highly competitive. So it’s not a good fit for some – again, can’t tell from the posts whether the daughter has a problem, or if it is a case of the mom not getting her way.</p>

15

<p>Churchmusicmom wrote:

</p>

<p>I think that the quintessential Barnard woman would deal with limited course choice for an obscure major by creating more opportunities for herself-- maybe through independent study, or through study abroad.</p>

<p>A lot of the mom’s complaints simply don’t ring true. For example, I know that my daughter had 4 and 5 point classes; I know that my daughter’s AP credits didn’t give her a leg up for graduation, though they did enable my daughter to essentially take a half-time rather than full time schedule her senior year. I know that my daughter and many of her friends could handle a 5-class course load, while simultaneously holding down part-time jobs. I’m guessing that your daughter’s transcript probably was quite full over her four years, given her shift to a STEM major – and there were no posts from you complaining of the course load or scheduling problems, even though your daughter was simultaneously running downtown to audition for dance/theater auditions. </p>

<p>My daughter does feel that Barnard was more rigorous than most other schools, based on comparing experiences with friends who attended other colleges. That is, she feels that she needed to work harder at Barnard than she would have if she had opted for, say, NYU or Fordham (two schools she turned down) (Though probably not Chicago, another school she turned down) It was hard work and certainly I heard some griping along the way, along the lines of - “mom, you just don’t understand how hard the work is here” – but to put it in computer geek-speak, to my daughter, that was a feature and not a bug. In hindsight, she’s glad that she has that foundation – especially now that she is in grad school and finding the work easy, while listening to fellow students fret about the work expectations. </p>

<p>I do think that people who over-rely on prestige and rankings might mistakenly believe that Barnard is a less academically demanding school–so perhaps that is an important caveat. If a student comes to Barnard looking mostly for the fun of life in a big city coupled with a fairly undemanding, low-pressure academic environment: not the right place.</p>

16

<p>Calmom:

</p>

<p>Perfectly put!</p>

<p>The AP credit thing is interesting to me in that I distinctly remember that my D got very little “boost” from the ones she had. I recall being a bit bummed about that as she was registering and learning more about how that all worked. It’s not like she could finish coursework for a required major any faster with those credits—it did allow her to start with a more advanced class in a sequence, though, I think…</p>

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<p>[Advanced</a> Placement Credit | Barnard College](<a href=“http://barnard.edu/registrar/external-credit/ap]Advanced”>http://barnard.edu/registrar/external-credit/ap)</p>

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<p>Churchmusicmom, knowing your daughter’s background, I’ll bet her APs weren’t in the right classes – I’ll bet she didn’t have AP Calc or AP Bio. :wink: I do remember it being mentioned at the advising session for incoming students that there were two different Bio tracks, with the AP course making the difference. I also remember that your daughter’s epiphany came in intro Psych course, a class that my d. skipped past because of her AP psych credit. I know that AP credit generally does not fill any of the 9 ways of knowing – it does supply a little bit of a cushion against coming up short on total unit count – but again, my daughter had 12 AP credits and she took a courseload of 18 credits senior year - whereas a typical course load at any college would be for 30 credits --so I fail to see where the AP courses were necessary. (I was irked at my daughter at the time for taking it so easy that year, but she was worried about money and focused on earning enough to pay for her living expenses in NY post grad. In hindsight, not a bad decision. She also really enjoyed being able to focus more deeply on her senior thesis her final semester, without any other courses to worry about).</p>

<p>The class time commitment for 3-point humanities class is significantly less than time required for a science lab class getting 4 points – basically lab time “counts” for less in terms of academic credit than lecture time, under the rationale that there is more out-of-class reading & prep time required for the lectures than the labs. (Not always true, however). So it rings very hollow to me for someone with a non-STEM major to complain about the course-load or class scheduling issues.</p>

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<p>My D has become very frustrated with course selection, but it’s all her own fault! She thinks she can double major, have a minor and do the Athena scholar program. She wants to do it all. It’s possible, but it is tough. Regardless, she didn’t get any AP credits and she had to drop a class last year because of medical issues so she fell a little behind where she wanted to be with points. She has 18 this term- 5 classes- 3 of which are 4 point classes. The other 2 courses are each 3 points. Tough? Sure. But doable. She’s also working three jobs, is in a sorority and volunteers on campus as a certain type of counselor. She’s doing it. It isn’t easy, but it is doable. </p>

<p>Isn’t 5 classes a typical load in college? It was when I was in college. And honestly, it didn’t seem to make a difference to me whether a class was 2, 3 or 4 credits- they were all about the same amount of work. My D seems to concur that’s true for the courses she has this year. </p>

<p>My D has also finagled her scheduled for next term so she is going to try to take all of her classes on M,W and will have T,Th free for internships or work, etc. Cool :)</p>

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<p>2016BarnardMom, get your daughter DSpar’s new book for Christmas.</p>