<p>My daughter is in the interesting position of having to choose between two very different options next year. I am trying to let her take the lead and she is visiting both schools for admitted student days this week and next week. However for those of you who have children at these schools maybe you could help with your insights about the pro's and con's of relative size, locations and academic offerings.
I realize this is a very individual choice but seeing the schools and hearing information sessions and now admitted student sessions has not sealed the deal for her on either choice (or me either for that matter although I have not expressed an opinion either way and will not to her!) I think her heart is with small community feel and the close friendships one makes more easily in that setting. I also think she is a little intimidated by what she and most of her family and friends perceive of as the intensity at Cornell. She is a relatively laid back student who has worked hard in high school but balanced her life well with team sports and community service. She will be studying a science field but is not sure of a major yet. She is most interested in math and chemistry.
Thanks for any insights especially if you have a son or daughter at either place who had to make a similar decision.</p>
<p>D1 was considering Cornell and Colgate 4 years ago. Colgate was my alma mater. It was a great experience for me because I was a bit sheltered when I was her age, the size fit me very well in the beginning, but toward the last 2 years it did feel small to me. I got a great education at Colgate, and the nurturing environment was good for me. D1 went to a small private high school (class size of 120). She knew she wanted something bigger, maybe not as big as Cornell. In the beginning it was intimidating, both academically and socially. </p>
<p>Cornell has over 3000 students per class, but it has many schools (I think 7), and each school is its own community. D1 through various ECs and her freshman dorm, she made Cornell a lot smaller. It still amazes me when I walk around with her in the Collegetown or on campus there would always someone saying hi to her.</p>
<p>Cornell as a large university, there will be a lot more opportunity for research, and more course offerings. Socially, it is also easier to find like minded students. At a smaller school, it maybe more limited when it comes to making friends. If you don’t fit into a school typical student mode, it is easier to feel like an outcast. From what I have seen with D1, and some of her friends, they do take their work very seriously. They are graded on a curve, but the mean is uaully B or B+.</p>
<p>D1 is graduating from Cornell this year. I have posted before, D1 felt it has been the best 4 years and she is going to miss it. Most of her friends got into their first choice grad school. Not all of her friends have a job lined up yet, but most of her 2010 friends are working. D1 has a job waiting for her. A lot of firms do recruit on campus.</p>
<p>D2 is graduating from Cornell Arts & sciences this year. She’s loved it there. She has done a great deal of extracurriculars, jobs, and other activities outside of the classroom, and she has a good bunch of people to hang out with. And has done well academically too.</p>
<p>But she is not a math or science major.</p>
<p>Both she and D1 attended LACs where each found they did not fit in well with the prevailing campus culture. Evidently this can be quite important at these smaller schools, since there are fewer places to turn. In both cases it could have potentially been fantastic if they did fit in very well, though.</p>
<p>Math and sciences will be no cakewalk at Cornell, for sure.Many classmates will NOT be “laid back”. On the other hand, D1 had math as one of her majors at her LAC, and it was no picnic there either, far from it.</p>
<p>It feels better, IMO, to have small class sizes. However, in the alternative it is better IMO to be able to choose from a vast array of courses altogether, including a huge selection of advanced level courses in your major. And to be able to explore fields, whether allied or altogether different, that you would never otherwise have had the opportunity to be exposed to.</p>
<p>Not sure about the situation at Bates, D1 was at a somewhat isolated LAC in a small town and got bored there after a couple years (particularly when her social scene broke down, but anyway). Less likely at a much larger school IMO.</p>
<p>Cornell’s campus is huge, but the effective part of it that has to be mastered in near term by an incoming person is usually much, much smaller. It may feel overwhelming at first glance but in practice it is not a problem. And it just allows for additional vistas to explore there in later years, so you are less inclined to be bored with it.</p>
<p>So based on my daughters’ experiences I would be inclined towards Cornell. But if my kid felt that they fit really well with the kids at a school like Bates, and didn’t come in with tons of AP credits (my D1 did, and had troubles with advanced level course selection at her LAC), and had preference for the more intimate setting with more homogeneous student group, I would be happy for them to choose the LAC. After all, I already have been happy to have them choose an LAC. Twice. Maybe next time it would work out better.</p>
<p>D is finishing up her 2nd year at Bates and loves it. S is a grad student at Cornell - 1st year there and also loves it. They are VERY different schools.</p>
<p>D wanted to be at a small school. Bates is smaller than her HS was. She knows the teachers and a good percentage of the students there. It’s a very open school and liberal. The classes are demanding but the kids don’t seem to compete - they all seem to help one another out.</p>
<p>S started at Cornell last fall as a grad student. Again he knows the profs. and a good percentage of the students in his major. Very big on conservation and it seems a fair amount of vegetarians. He has a good set of friends but because he is a law student they are always competing with one another. They don’t let it impact their friendships but it adds a different layer to the friendships. Cornell just in general seems more competitive to me than Bates.</p>
<p>Ithaca is beautiful. Lewiston is an old mill town in New England (not so pretty) however the campus is lovely. Both kids have cars. S was not able to get an on campus apartment so lives off campus. D lives on campus in a very nice dorm. S uses his car a lot. D doesn’t venture off campus that often. She did have a season pass to a local ski resort this winter and she and her friends did a fair amount of going skiing. They have thai food delivered occassionally but don’t really go off campus that much to go out to eat of shopping. If they do decide to go they either head to Freeport or Portland.</p>
<p>Overall educationwise I think they are both getting very good educations and have excellent professors. </p>
<p>If you have specific questions feel free to PM me. Oh and I saw that your D is interested in a science field. D is a double major biology and math.</p>
<p>Rochester, my DS will be going to Bates. </p>
<p>As the other posters said two very different schools. </p>
<p>Tough choice.</p>
<p>I was both a grad student and an undergrad at Cornell.The experience of being a grad student there was substantially different. </p>
<p>Much less a law student. Law students and undergrads do not live together in the dorms, generally do not share classes, with minimal exceptions if there are any, and often have minimal to no contact with each other altogether. I never even met a law student there, until some of my friends went to its law school.</p>
<p>Obviously law students are competitive, particularly at any T14 law school. The current environment in legal employment is such that only the top third to half of Cornell Law’s class will get offered the type of lucrative jobs many law students want, and need to pay off their loans. This is a collection in the first place of former top undergrads from across the nation, who succeeded at very high levels in their undergraduate programs. They were competitive before they got there.</p>
<p>Whatever characterization Cornell undergrads may have, it is not discernable based on what the law students are doing.</p>
<p>In fact, Cornell undergrads are a highly diverse group of students, with tremendously varied interests and objectives, due to the seven very different undergraduate colleges there. Stereotyping so varied a group can be dangerous. It’s true that most are serious about their academics, and work hard there. And that will be the case for science majors. However observing law students will shed no light on this one way or the other. One really only gets to experience the full range of undergrad diversity there by living as an undergrad in the dorms.</p>
<p>A car is helpful there for exploring the greater area, which is beautiful and opens additional vistas. However most undergraduates stay on campus & the adjacent areas most of the time. A car is not necesssary, particularly for underclassmen, there are lots of things for them to do right there. There are also buses that run downtown. I can see where the on-campus undergrad college student thing would be less appealing, or available, to a grad student living off campus, I’m sure such people would have more desire for a car. For undergrads living on campus it can still be an asset, but it’s hardly a necessity.</p>
<p>Absolutely true that grad school is different than undergrad. I didn’t mean that it wasn’t. However the campus is bigger and there are a lot more students than at Bates. The environment is different (Lewiston vs. Ithaca). There are pros and cons of both schools as there are for ALL schools. The real question is what is the FIT for the OP’s D. Also didn’t mean to imply that a car was necessary. It’s not NECESSARY for either of my children. However for both it is HELPFUL.</p>
<p>Tell her to go with her gut (sounds like Bates). I transferred out of Cornell because it was too big and impersonal. If she fits with the culture at Bates, this is a no-brainer. Do not pay private school prices for something that feels like a state school experience (Cornell). I know many posters will disagree with me, but I transferred from Cornell to Tufts and could not be happier with my decision. Smaller classes, professors that actually care about students, a sense of community. It’s very, very difficult to create that experience at Cornell.</p>
<p>My S was at Bates for the first semester of his freshman year. Only there one term, because he was there as a “Katrina kid” if you recall the situation when Tulane was closed down.</p>
<p>Fabulous experience. Totally welcoming community - students, staff, profs. </p>
<p>He was an Engineering major. Obviously could not do that at Bates, but did his first term science/math courses there plus an elective. Small class sizes and Freshman Seminar program meant strong connection with profs. His Physics prof was a real mentor to him.</p>
<p>The school has a reputation as a strong science school.</p>
<p>Lewiston is not on anyone’s list of “top destinations,” (we live in a shorefront town about an hour south of there) but there is a bit of an “urban renaissance” going on there. As well, the school is well located for access to Portland/Freeport/ski weekends etc.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for all of your thoughtful comments…D woke up this morning to tell me if she goes to Cornell she will join a sorority so as to have a sense of community and also that she has been speaking to a cornell alum who has been helpful in calming her down about the academic intensity.
I feel for all the kids going through this experience of making life decisions based on what may be mostly “gut” level feelings at this point. Maybe the process itself is a maturing one and D is surprising me by how she is using the resources around her besides her parents to get input. Thanks to the CC Community I have my way of getting support as well!</p>
<p>A sorority can be very helpful towards creating a more intimate environment. FWIW, it is quite possible to have a favorable social experience without joining a sorority. My D2 is not in a sorority, and loves it there. Though it is also quite possible to have an unfavorable experience as CUlater21 did.</p>
<p>But on the other hand, in the LAC environment it is possible to have an undesirably more intimate experience with a bunch of people that, turns out, you don’t really like, and maybe vica versa, but can’t really get away from. This is what D1 and D2 encountered, unfortunately.</p>
<p>Completely agree with CUlater re: the feel of the big lecture classes. However, unfortunately he left having experienced the worst of the university, and before experiencing the best, which is the huge vista of upper level courses and opportunities that most manifest themselves only in the upperclass years there. And he left for a bigger school than Bates. In upperclass years I would rather be at Tufts than at Bates, YMMV.</p>
<p>Either situation can turn out good or bad, you have to pick your poison, given all available information and what you think you know about yourself, and hope for the best is all. Unfortunately at this point you lack perfect information about the places, and about yourself. Because you are putting yourself in situations that are completely new to you.</p>
<p>That’s why think D2s course, and CUlater’s, isn’t too bad, you take a while in college to figure out what the real deal is, for college vs. you, then if there’s a better environment, given this updated information, you can switch. Everyone will not come to the same conclusions.</p>
<p>We have lots of Cornell experience, and also visited Bates, which I thought was a wonderful, wonderful place. Founded by abolitionists, so has a bit of that egalitarian feel. I was very impressed with the Bates students who spoke and loved the many opportunities to travel with the 4-4-1 calendar.
That said, many people find a small school great at the outset, and by senior year, often after a year or semester abroad, it seems very, well, small. It is possible to make Cornell feel small through ECs, including Greek life. The frustration there is that there are so many courses you want to take, and can’t possibly take even half of them.
Another thing to consider at a small school is that there is also a small faculty in each department. If there’s a dud, or just someone you don’t get along with, it’s hard to avoid them in getting your major requirements. At a bigger school, you can often avoid the one or two who are not your cup of tea.</p>
<p>“…often after a year or semester abroad, it seems very, well, small.”
funny you should say that, exactly when my D1 became disatisfied with the environment at her LAC was after she came back following time spent in a big city abroad. </p>
<p>Maybe the trick is, dont leave, or only go someplace worse.</p>
<p>Culater21
</p>
<p>Not everyone will have the same experience at each school. When D1 started at Cornell, we fully expected it to be more like a large state school where professors didn´t know the students or had close interaction with them. It was a real surprise to me when D1 was sick for 2 weeks with mono freshman year, and every one of her professors worked with her so she didn´t have to withdraw from her courses. She was allowed to make up her tests and hand in her papers late. </p>
<p>I also remember over her fall break when she was a freshman, she had a question about her math or econ problem set, and coming from a small private high school, she didn´t think twice about emailing her professor. I tried to manage her expectation about hearing back from the professor. But he emailed her as he was racing through an airport to try to catch a plane to let her know that he would answer her question more fully once he landed.</p>
<p>In 4 years at Cornell, D1 has made a point to going to office hours and getting to know her professors. She is amazed how often she has been the only one who showed up at those office hours. D1 hasn´t liked every one of her professors at Cornell (more of their teaching styles), but she has rarely complained to me about their attitude toward students. </p>
<p>I don´t think it´s an universal sentiment that Cornell professors do not care about their students. It has not been D1´s experience.</p>
<p>Cornell is not a warm, fuzzy place. Unlike some LACs, dean of students (or professor) will not call students up to find out why he/she has not been going to classes. D1 manages her time well, and she is known to not going to classes sometimes, so she would find it strange to have someone checking up on her.</p>