@FROMTHESOUTH3,
Because these schools are often considered together there have been a lot of threads about the three and their relative strengths and weaknesses. If you look at the threads in the links below you’ll find a ton of information. If you still have questions I’m sure you can ask them here and I for one will pledge to stop talking about the Common Data Set and score reporting manipulation.
In the end, although there are differences between the three and each will have its champions there isn’t a dog in the group. All three are fine schools.
@4junior, I think we should cut Bates some slack about being transparent. I looked at their website and there is a very easy (and honest explanation) that is clearly disclosed. The numbers presented are not accepted students – they are enrolled students. But, they are only the students who submitted tests scores with their application. I have to say, I was a tad surprised by the numbers in the Common Data Set. But, apparently those are the scores of all matriculating students, including those that did not submit scores with their application. As a test optional school, I think this is fair reporting.
I could understand why Bates would want the scores even of non-submitters for their data that purports to show single sitting tests don’t matter all that much.
@crewday, Hamilton, Middlebury and Colby are test flexible, meaning that a portion applicants would opt to submit the scores of SAT subject tests instead of SATs or ACTs. That could explain the missing 19%. Also, remember there may be a few in the CDS data that submit both ACTs and SATs, so those percentages are not “either ors.”
Something else to mention about Bates. They are all about being inclusive and I think they really do walk the walk. For instance, at their info session they talked a lot about holistic admissions and while they look at the quality of the high school, they don’t want to penalize kids for being in a bad district. For instance they talked about the % of kids attending college, and said that they accepted someone from a school that sent just 9% of seniors to college. I bet that kid was not a high scorer. It was my sense, that they are truly committed to recruiting kids who may not get many other opportunities.
@gointhruaphase, actually I don’t think it makes that clear, at least not on the Student Profile page https://www.bates.edu/admission/student-profile/; nothing says “admitted” or “matriculated”, just says “for those that submitted data” - could easily be “accepted” which would be higher as typical.
That said as @Sue22 noted, all are great schools so it comes down to fit as vibes are different amongst the three.
@gointhruaphase I’ll agree with @Chembiodad above. I don’t think its clear or clearly disclosed at all. You state “I looked at their website and there is a very easy (and honest explanation) that is clearly disclosed. The numbers presented are not accepted students – they are enrolled students. But, they are only the students who submitted tests scores with their application.” It is hard for me to believe that these are enrolled students and that those numbers and the non-submitters average out to the CDS numbers. No math genius here but common sense would say that there would need to be many more non submitters to bring the average down over 200 pts. As a school that seems to value ethics highly I am surprised that they are not more transparent, honesty seems such a part of their vibe and I think that is part of what rocks me about this.
In terms of Colby I doubt that there number shifted that much in one year, in fact I hope not as that would make it seem, as someone mentioned, that they are chasing scores too much. My guess is the numbers on their site are admitted students.
I spoke with my D and she felt like giving stats for admitted students was in and of itself a useful metric. As student she can see if there is a good chance of admittance. But as a parent I find the CDS numbers quite important and will say again that I had no idea this alternate set of figures existed and I feel I am not alone in that.
And yes, good schools all! D still likes Bates highly and while she was dismayed by the CDS numbers she is still very interested in the school; it has unique qualities that she finds appealing.
19% and ~20% are for enrolled students class of '20. The figures are derived from the CDS. I shouldn’t have been lazy by saying ~20%
The 16.8% is the class of '21 and is derived from the Hamilton website.
Regardless, the test scores that are published in Hamilton’s CDS ('20) do not include at least 19% of the enrolled students.
All the more reason why I like the score distribution provided by Hamilton in their admissions section which is geared to guidance counselors (I do recall that Brown provides the same detail - I suspect there are many others) - as noted, it clearly delineates applications submitted, admitted and enrolled results with a confirmation that no doubles are included - https://www.hamilton.edu/admission/apply/standardized-testing-distribution-of-scores
As expected the avg. Admitted ACT of 33 is higher than the Enrolled ACT of 32 given there are a handful of schools with an Enrolled ACT of 33 that pull from Hamilton - not a surprise to me.
That said, this is way off topic as it relates to the OP’s request for feedback on three highly selective LAC’s located in Maine that are all great choices!
@Chembiodad , did you come up with your numbers for colby by adding the 2 25% points and the 2 75% points? That assumes that each person who was in at the 25th percentile in reading was also in the 25th percentile in math. Seems unlikely. And that cds says it is for freshmen in 2015, so there is a 2 year gap, which does seem odd as most of these seem to be released by othet schools in the fall for the current class. We’ll have to wait for the data to be released for the class of 2021 to conclude whether those numbers are accurate.
I think the message here is to look at the cds as well as the school 's marketing if you care about test scores. And if you’re worried about the other students, visit and sit in on classes and decide for yourself if the level of engagement seems right for you.
Agree that you can’t add the 25% of Math and CR and achieve a blended score, but the ACT Composite is a clean number.
Yes, timing is in question, but the historical trend is pretty clear when you compare 2014-2015-2016-2017 for other similar schools so it would have to be a statistical anomaly and a job very done at Colby to have improved that much. As many have stated, the selection process is supposed to be holistic as no one is just their scores; if that’s truly a school’s mission than releasing consistent data shouldn’t be a concern as they are only numbers - IMHO.
I also wish all were consistent in releasing endowment data given all have a June calendar year, so a September/October release should be achievable - once again, it just makes one wonder when it isn’t consistently released as I have seen some release every two years through audited financials only.
@Chembiodad, @4junior, I find myself in a strange place of writing 3 posts defending Bates and I have no relationship to the school. But here goes. The page is titled “Student Profile.” I have never seen the term "student profile refer to anything other than to students attending the school, not applicants in general or accepted applicants to the school. There is just no reason to include people only applying or admitted applicants who chose to go elsewhere in a college student profile. My belief is that no college does that because a student profile is intended to tell you the type of student that has chosen to and is attending the school.
The page goes on to describe “2021 Class Stats” - again to my mind clearly tells you that the statistics refer to the students attending Bates. How could the term “class stats” refer to students that are not in the class? The class is described as 510 in number. I double checked by referring to the Common Data Set which shows that about 1200 applicants are admitted. To me that substantiates that Bates is giving statistics about the matriculating class, not about admitted students. The remainder further evinces they are talking about the matriculating class, not accepted applicants, such the percentage that went to public and private schools. That information is very interesting if you are only talking matriculating students. It has virtually no value if you are identifying simply those who applied to the school or who were admitted but chose to go elsewhere.
Finally, I don’t think the disclosure could be clearer about test scores. Bates states: “Bates has been a national leader in the test-optional movement for three decades. In October 1984, the Bates faculty voted to make standardized testing optional for admission . . . For those who submitted testing, the middle 50% had score ranges of. . .” Then Bates goes on to give those scores.
The scores given are only for those who submitted the scores for consideration by the adcom. I remember hearing by rumor somewhere that only around 50% of Bates applicants submit tests scores, so I think that is the answer. The test scores of all applicants (even those who did not submit to the adcom) are in the common data set. The scores in the profile are for those who chose to submit.
@gointhruaphase, those are a lot of inferences. It would be simple for all schools to post the distribution of Applied, Accepted, and Attending test scores and then guessing would be eliminated.
I haven’t read the whole thread and so I am going to address the original post. My daughter attends Bates and is very happy. My husband and I think it’s a great school.
Pros: Yes, Bates walks the walk. Inclusivity is important. No Greek life. The atmosphere is non-competitive. The academics are rigorous but not unmanageable (though my daughter might disagree at the moment! Spent Friday night doing work.) Class based discussion is common. One of her profs gives 30% of the grade based on MEANINGFUL participation. I think that is fantastic for my shy daughter.
Many great campus activities. Great access to the outdoors. A bird sanctuary is literally across the street and many students go there to run and walk. Kids take advantage of the Outing Club and winter activities. There are a lot of active campus clubs. My daughter was in debate her first year and had no previous debate experience. She learned so much from being in debate.The college puts on very popular campus dances several times a year. Many concerts, shows of all types, and events. Active and accepting non-denominational campus ministry. Lots of volunteer opportunities.
Some people don’t like Lewiston. I would say the majority of Bates kids like Lewiston more and more as they spend more time there. My daughter says she feels like the college is part of the town. Locals walk their dogs, the middle school is across the street, kids come for prom pictures at the lake. The downtown area is walking distance if weather allows, and there are a LOT of good, affordable restaurants now. Shopping for essentials is easy, but there is a lack of “cute” shops. The college puts on free shuttles to Freeport and Portland, both popular places to spend the day. Shuttles are also offered to other local areas, and Boston (small fee of $20.) The airport is only 40 minutes away.
We are very happy with the career center. President Spencer is fantastic. I hope she never leaves. Food is great. No outside company manages the food hall. Excellent study abroad.
The best thing about Bates is the kids. I like every kid I have met so far. There is definitely no one type of Bates student. Every time I visit I am surprised by the kids I see. They are relaxed and friendly. There are definitely sporty kids, but plenty of non-sporty kids (including my daughter and her friends.) There are arty kids and nerdy kids. There are urban kids and preppy kids. We were extremely impressed by the talent on display at Back to Bates weekend and the bands that performed. Wow! So yes, great kids.
Cons: Not quite as diverse as we would like, but they are really working on that. Sometimes hard to get a desired class, which is probably true of most LACs. Range of foreign language courses is limited and I really wish they would add Arabic. Though the administration has made a big effort to crack down on noisy parties, (Trick or Drink is no more), there are apparently some locals who are still not happy with the school. By all accounts, things are much better than they used to be. I can’t think of much else. We are thrilled with Bates.
@Chembiodad, I suspect that question was not meant to be rhetorical. In that case, I have no idea.
The Common Data Set does include a class profile, which is similar to my description – meaning the attending class of students. Within that class profile, it asks for the number of test score submitters, which (assuming only a small group of double ACT and SAT submitters) is a much higher percentage than the +/- 50% that supposedly submit test scores in support of admissions. (Thanks @CrewDad). My guess is that students are asked to submit test scores after they are admitted so that Bates can keep track of how test scores predict academic outcomes (since Bates appears to be a leader in keeping statistics). Since it has those statistics, it puts them on the common data set.
I agree with you, however, that it does not appear that test optional schools are required to report test scores, and it would seem silly to do so if not required.
FWIW, my kid did submit SAT 1 and 2 scores to Bates. Hers were high, but most of her friends applied test optional, including one of her friends who was the Val at a 3000 student high school.
The smartest kid she knows at Bates applied test-optional. This student makes Dean’s List every semester and has won titles in a competitive national and international activity.
Not that this was the topic of conversation, but a school like Bates, where students do very well in rigorous academics despite being accepted test-optional, really gives pause to think when considering what intelligence actually means.
There is value to applicants at test optional schools in knowing what range of scores will “help” the application… How many CC threads are out there asking “should I Submit scores to x school?” I appreciate that test optional schools provide this (so long as they are clear about what it is they are providing.)
There is also value to knowing the test scores of students who matriculated. This provides an indication of the ability of the student body to do what those tests assess. It’s not intelligence, but the ability to solve a certain kind of problem with time constraints.
I would also look at the scores in the context of each school’s course requirements. If a school has distribution requirements that include somewhat rigorous math or math-based science, it may feel it needs scores to ensure students can meet those. (How many engineering programs are test optional? ) Schools want their students to succeed. If degree requirements can be met flexibly, the school may know that a driven student can succeed with lesser skills of the type the standardized tests assess.
Both Bates and Bowdoin have been very successful educational institutions for decades without requiring tests, so clearly, the students they accept thrive with the degree requirements and the way courses are taught.
I am going to guess that all these schools do some, and in some cases, a lot of analysis to determine what application inputs (including test scores, regardless of whether they are needed for the application) correlate to academic success at that institution.
