Also, though I loved Wes and still do, in retrospect I’ve realized that it may not have been the best fit for me. I am liberal but not political and I do believe Wesleyan is quite politically active.
They are both great schools and you can’t go wrong. I hope your revisits make it easier for you to decide. It sounds from your post that you deep down prefer Bates. Go for it! At both, the athlete divide will be about the same.
My comparison to Wes is more academic in nature vs social. Wes and Ham are both strong in writing and Ham may be perceived as a bit more creative than Bates. Again, splitting hairs here. I think once you revisit Hamilton you will have clarity.
After reading more, I think you would be happy at either. You will know better when you visit Hamilton this week. Be sure to eat in the cafeteria and talk to students. Maybe attend an event on campus. Have fun.Two great choices!
Hmmm, interesting, @wisteria100 . I don’t think of Hamilton as being more creative than Bates. In fact, I am impressed with how strong the arts do seem to be at Bates. There’s an actual Art museum on campus. But, you know my preferences, of course:-)
Bates is unquestionably liberal. I would not describe it as activist. My daughter likes that. There was a “get out the vote” effort during the election. I know people did attend the Women’s March in various cities. But no, not activist. My D thought Hamilton was preppy and that was a reason she decided not to apply there. There are preppy kids at Bates too, but I would describe most of the stduent body as leaning a little more urban, or a little more outdoorsy, mixed with geeks, athletes, and hippies. (D’s roommate is a total hippy.) Last year, Bates admitted 40 first-gen to college students. It works hard to increase diversity. That is one of the reasons why it went test-optional decades ago.
Great question about non-athletes, @hopeful1660 . D has found them, no problem. She has been with several groups of people from the start, and has now definitely found her people. None are athletes, though a couple of them are into ultimate Frisbee, which is apparently pretty popular. She seems to now have an ever-expanding group of non-athlete friends. The college puts on fairly regular campus-wide events and everyone comes and everyone enjoys them.
There is partying. Bates made Princeton Review’s list again for Beer drinking. My D says she doesn’t know why. She isn’t a big partier, and though parties happen, it’s not in your face. Or maybe she is hanging out with the wrong people! I seem to recall that she did say the lacrosse team has a lot of parties. Maybe the atheltes take the place of Greek Life?
I am not sure about your concern for the reputation. I would say that Bates and Hamilton are both highly regarded. They have nearly identical acceptance rates. I cannot imagine that any employer would ever consider one better than the other. Bates has a very active alumni network. There are many internships and jobs offered by Bates alumni. The new president, Clayton Spencer, has raised over $120 million for the college in just four years. It has beautifully modernized buildings, and some gorgeous brand new dorms that are a thousand times nicer than the ones I saw at Hamilton, but perhaps Hamilton’s dorms have been spruced up. There is, as far as I know, only one from that isn’t gorgeous, but even it was given a facelift last summer. It at least has large rooms. I do not think Bates’ endowment is an issue at all. Not sure if you have visited yet, but the campus and its buildings are beautiful.
Bates does have another big advantage, and that is its proximity to civilization. The college puts on free shuttles regularly to Freeport, which is a fun town with AMAZING shopping and restaurants. You will regularly run into kids from Bowdoin and Colby there. Also, free shuttles to Portland, which is a very cool small city. Once or twice a month, you can go to Boston for $20 for,the whole day. It’s only two hours away. Lewsiton is a modest town, but there are plenty of places to eat within walking distance and the kids go out. The countryside is very beautiful there, and there is a lovely wide river where the rowing team practices. Next to campus is a bird sanctuary where kids run, and it appears, have bonfires.
So you can tell I think it’s a great school. The retention rates between the two are very similar. You can’t go wrong with either, but after reading what you are looking for, you seem like a Bobcat to me:-)
Bates’s rep may be outdoorsy and liberal, but there are lots of types, many conservatives, and D1 was involved in activism (the constructive sort. ) Both were involved in the community. Both of mine, and many friends, were Bonner Leaders. It’s all there. My impression was how friendly kids are. Confident. Open. Directed, but not primarily pre-professional. Clearly, some places where Linda’s and my observations don’t overlap shows this variety.
“Urban” is an interesting word- in the sense that many have a comfort in various situations, have experiences to bring. But I think you’d find that at Ham, too. It’s a quality of the more selective NE LACs.
The heavy campus party scene may have diminished somewhat, as the new president announced she’d clamp down. My phrase, when mine were there was, “Work hard, party hard.” (Though D2 spent plenty of weekend evenings in the library. And D1 joked, Sun am, everyone is back to work.) At the same time, there’s a hard reason Ham made the frats non-res, parties in public areas.
Athletes were no divide, for mine.
Take a look at club and activity offerings. Also, we haven’t even gotten to things like study abroad opps or how short term can be used.
@Lindagaf Thanks for all your help! Is your daughter athletic? Part of what I’m looking for is not only non-athlete groups, but sports teams who don’t isolate themselves and exclude others. I play sports right now but wasn’t recruited and wouldn’t be a walk on even if that were an option. I am athletic but definitely wouldn’t describe myself as an athlete. Similarly, I am somewhat artistic but not an artist. In all honesty I’m a mix of a lot of things and because of that I fear that it would be hard for me to really fit in any group because I’m not predominantly any ‘type.’ At small schools like the NESCACs I imagine kids may get pigeonholed and being the inbetween-er that I feel I am I’m worried all of the pigeonholes would miss me and I’d be stuck on the outside. I agree that Hamilton is preppier but not to the degree that I feel Colby and Colgate are. A moderate amount of preppy doesn’t bother me. It’s the characteristics that, in my experience at a preppy high school, sometimes accompany prep–entitlement, snobbiness, hauteur–that bother me. I have visited Bates and those new dorms are really gorgeous. It was hard to get a read on the student body because they kept us with other accepted students. The whole thing was a bit of a slighlty disorganized dog and pony show. A good one nonetheless, but still a show that I’m having a hard time translating into what a more authentic experience might be like. Again, thanks everyone for the kind words!
Sorry, I saw that you did visit Bates last week. What did you think? Did you check out Gomes Chapel? I LOVE that building. They host all kinds of events there, not just religious services. I think the stained glass windows are very special, because they feature great thinkers from history, rather than Christian iconography. Overall, Bates is inclusive. It’s prides itself on inclusivity, and if you read its history, you will see why.
@lookingforward , yes, there are conservatives, and the NY Times managed to find a Trump voter during the election, which made me smile. Clayton Spencer has been true to her word, the paryting has been diminished. Trick or Drink is relegated to history. I think a lot of it has been due to improving relations with Lewiston. I know that a lot of Bates kids volunteer in the schools, not sure how recent that is.
Poor D didn’t even go out this weekend. She has three essays and two exams in the next few days. She is looking forward to playing with puppies and getting free massages so that she can chill out a little during finals week!
@hopeful1660 , just saw your post. No, D is not an athlete and has zero interest. Bates has about 40% athletes, I believe. Atheltics are very important to the school, and I suspectbits to keep the alumni happy in large part. D was worried about athletes. Her concerns were unfounded. She would say that everyone just gets along. No competitiveness, definitrly no slacking though. D mades the Dean’s list, which 25% of students achieve. She loves it. She likes being around other smart, motivated kids.
@Chembiodad Bates has an extremely high rate of grad school acceptance. It is number 5 in producing Fulbright Scholars. Cornell produced 15, Bates had 13 last year. Given its size, that’s a heck of an achievement. I think Bates doesn’t care too much about USNWR. It does things the way it wants to, and always has.
As a parent of DD’s that are both heavily considering Bates and Hamilton, aside from the controversial USNWR rankings I continue to read that while Hamilton isn’t considered at top 4-6 LAC it has for decades been in the next tranche as compared to Bates which seems to be a notch lower - not certain why though. Understanding that both are wonderful schools, what is the reputation of both regarding neuroscience/CS job placement (think an Artificial Intelligence job in a biotech or tech co) and law school admissions as these are the directions my DD’s would be headed after undergraduate?
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Like you, I love Bates. My girls were 2 diff sorts, both happy there, both impressively educated (which is more than grades. ) D1 had many athlete friends, D2 was into the music. D1’s friends ran the gamut, D2’s happened to be more artsy, sensitive NYC kids. Both had some extraordinary abroad opps, esp D1.
As far as rankings go, @Corbett is correct. In addition, Bates has a long association with the African-American community, and goes to great lengths to recruit first-gen students. Along with being one of the first test-optional schools, it’s probably fair to say that all those groups were not traditionally associated with high-paying careers. It’s not so much the case now, of course.
This is from a NY Times 2015 article, discussing a study on the effect of test scores on GPA:
The study “found no significant difference between nonsubmitters and submitters in graduation rates (0.6 percent lower for nonsubmitters) or cumulative G.P.A. (2.83 for nonsubmitters, 2.88 with test scores).” Furthermore,
“Data also showed that nonsubmitters are more likely than submitters to be first-generation-to-college enrollees, underrepresented minorities, women, Pell Grant recipients and students with learning differences.” Again, traditionally groups of people that would be expected to earn less. Yet, it’s apparent that educational quality is not suffering.
I wasn’t going to make this long, however, I had to look. Bates and Hamilton have both produced 5 Rhodes Scholars. Yet, Bates is #5 in Fulbright Scholars, whereas Hamilton is #15. So it’s pretty clear that Bates is not a sub-par educational institution. It’s also clear that its student body might not typically be from as high-earning a background as Hamilton, which affects endowments, which affects USNWR rankings. Bates has a now-long history of being test-optional, whereas Hamilton does not, though it has modified its test requirements over the years.
Re the distribution requirements, that is something my D has found surprising. The requirements are soooo loose. D was given full credit for four of her AP classes. So she has already met some of the requirements, and said to me when choosing her courses for next year, that it feels like there are no requirements. She pretty much is just taking classes she is interested in.
At any rate, the whole rankings thing is clearly misleading, and a different thread. A different publication’s ranking will tell a different story. Anyway, OP, good luck with your decision. Either school is a great choice.
@Lindagaf I liked it a lot. Even though I was felt fairly uncomfortable and awkward for most of my time there because of the way the day was set up, kids seemed happy and relaxed. They also seemed ambitious but not power hungry or competitive and I don’t take that for granted. I always thought students at Bates partied a little more moderately than is perhaps the case at other colleges. Your daughter’s experience seems to support that idea(?). It’s also great to hear that “everyone just gets along.” Is there any benefit to making the Dean’s list besides the pride that I’m sure comes with such an achievement? Also which AP classes was she able to get credit for? How is she spending her short term? Sorry for all the questions…
The excessive partying my D was worried about hasn’t materialized, though she knows people do party. Like I mentioned, I do think the current president has tempered the partying and there a lot of evening events.
Re Deans list, just pride. When you go to a school with kids that are already pretty great students, it’s nice to be in the top:-) I am hoping she might apply to be a Fulbright scholar. That would be awesome.
D had seven scores of four or five, but they will give credit for a max of four. I think she got credit for French, Stats, English Lang, and Enviromental Sci. Not sure. She could have placed out of Intro Psych because she had AP psych, but chose to take it anyway.
She is doing an Oscar Wilde seminar for short term. No idea why she chose that. There are more interesting offerings, IMO. I would have chosen roller coaster physics or gone away somewhere, myself!
Re accepted students days, my D never cared for them. They are always a little artificial, no matter what school you visit. Her best visits were not at those events.
To reinforce the point about “alumni involvement”, check out the alumni giving rate in the latest USN&WR ranking. Bates has a 42% alumni giving rate, which is an impressive number – slightly higher than Hamilton (40%) or Colby (41%). USN&WR currently rates Bates at #14 among National LACs for alumni giving rate.
Furthermore, Bates has a higher alumni giving rate than any university ranked by USN&WR, except for two (Princeton and Dartmouth).
Discussion on differences between Bates and Hamilton on academic quality, alumni support, reputation, job outlooks, etc. is truly splitting hairs. Just go where you think you’d be happiest and don’t look back. There is no wrong decision here.
That. And if you have to split hairs, maybe you missed some of the basics about what each does offer, the context, strengths and opps in her/his major, etc.
I also think OP has gotten feedback from adults on this thread and perhaps should ask these questions on the college specific forums, try to get feedback from current students.
@hopeful1660: You seem drawn to Bates. For this reason I’d recommend the school for you. However, you have had a much fresher experience there, and may be susceptible to some degree of confirmation bias as you assimilate new information. I’d suggest you keep an open mind through your upcoming visit to Hamilton. At that point you can make a fair choice. To close a door now, though, because of the seemingly rapidly impending decision you must make, would be premature – you have come too far for that.
@doschicos @lookingforward Good point and good idea. Rationally I do know that the differences are essentially negligible, but after four years of hard work the rankings can be hard to ignore. I do think it’s more about fit at this point, which is why I’ve mainly been focusing on the social climates at each school. I’ll be posting new threads on the Hamilton and Bates forums shortly 
@merc81 You’re 100% correct about the confirmation bias. What I don’t know is whether or not that bias is more than just bias. And I know that’s something only I can answer for myself. I am definitely trying to keep an open mind until I’ve seen Hamilton and am in a more informed position to make my final decision.
The other part of this story is that I only decided to apply to Hamilton after receiving my ED1/ED2 decisions from Wes and Vassar, respectively, the latter of which was an upfront rejection and the former a deferral that led to a rejection. I knew before the ED1 deadline that I would be applying to Bates regular decision. Because of that, I toured early on in the process, I requested an alumni interview, I spoke to the Bates rep at my school’s college fair, and generally did all of the things I was supposed to do not only to demonstrate interest, but also to learn more about the school. Though I also visited Hamilton before the ED1 deadline, it didn’t make the original cut. I didn’t interview. I didn’t really demonstrate interest, and I didn’t know as much about it. But I was also looking for something different then than I am now. I was more attracted to the artsy, non-conformist, uber liberal vibes that Wesleyan and Vassar both have. Now, as I’ve mentioned, I’d like something more balanced and more “mainstream,” and that’s why it’s back on the table. I also know more about Hamilton now, having gotten my acceptance and done some research. However, the fact still stands that I’ve liked Bates longer than I’ve liked Hamilton and that’s probably/definitely affecting how I’m feeling
Your awareness of the possibility will serve you well though.
Though you may have simply been making a concession to the thread with the above statement, you can find academically related factors that may indicate significant differences between your choices. Since this will be your decision, made with your priorities, you should feel free to consider the statistical attributes of these schools should this be of importance to you. For example, by 25th percentile ACT and SAT scores, Hamilton’s student profile appears closer to that of Harvard or Stanford than to that of Bates. Should this be of importance? Not necessarily, but maybe.
In any event, during your Hamilton visit, I’d recommend you take a self-guided tour of their first-year housing options, particularly Wertimer, Wallace Johnson, South, North, Keehn and Major, even if this might mean separating yourself for a time from more structured events, @hopeful1660.
Both schools draw top kids who don’t get into a top ten sort.