Bates vs. Hamilton

College Search & Selection
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In their own words, “Hamilton is SAT optional, but not test optional.” We all know Bates is fully test optional. So, sure, only 20.5% at Hamilton may have used traditional standardized scoring. But beats me how one then makes assumptions about which pool is brighter, more inclusive, or more apt to be the experience OP seeks.

I get that you’re trying to suggest the lower scoring students at Bates are"weaker" than at Ham. But, so what? Bates isn’t scraping the bottom of the barrel; they’re looking at other than scores, in the first place. It’s common on CC for some to assume kids are hiding their scores, are truly weaker, if they don’t submit. But that’s “the Kool-Aid.” If one really knew these two colleges, they wouldn’t be trying to imply anything about Bates being lesser.

Bates is a little different in that community partnerships are popular. Not just service, if one chooses, but the opportunity, eg, to work with different sorts of local, state, or regional groups in hybrid participation, service and academic ways- sometimes on-going, sometimes for the senior project. There are other contextual differences. To try to boil this down to a projection that there’s a huge quality gap based on scores around the 25th percentile being lower is, IMO, futile. It misses the point.

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I didn’t take any tests besides the old SAT, so I can only speak to that experience. But I am sure that on all tests—subject tests, SATs, and ACTs—the success of many students is based on how much and how well they prepare and not necessarily how talented they are or how much they know. I did well on the SAT, but I am privileged and was lucky enough to be given a tutor with whom I spent hours every weekend. Pre-tutor I got a 2120 and a 29 on the one practice ACT I took. Certainly nothing special for an unhooked applicant, which I am. Post-tutor I got a 2310. This score was only achieved after a lot of time and money was spent. Not everyone is lucky enough to have those resources. I’m grateful that I do.

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^^
Thank you!

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This reflects the complementary (and incorrect) figure. For the class of 2020, 79.5% of Hamilton applicants, and 81% of those enrolled, submitted traditional scoring. For the class of 2019, which corresponds to the ranges posted by Apple 23, 83% arrived after having submitted traditional scoring. (For those who are interested in statistics, note that the posted SAT scores, though, would be widened by an additional ~31 points based on these schools’ respective reporting percentages.)

That said, Based on what the OP has indicated so far, and as I stated up-thread, I think Bates might be the better fit for her/him. Actually, I’m pretty sure of this. However, @hopeful1660 has yet to revisit Hamilton, and perhaps will have different comparative impressions after that time.

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It was a typo. “…may not have.”
Sorry.

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@merc81 You also made a statement about how Hamilton’s 25th percentile is closer to Harvard/Stanford’s 25th than Bates’ is. In my mind the implication of that, whether it was intentional or not, is that other schools should strive to have their test score data resemble Harvard/Stanford’s data (and maybe H/S’s other metrics, as well). To be clear, I don’t think you meant that Hamilton is a wannabe ivy. But since we are/were talking about fit, I thought I’d mention that I didn’t apply to any of the ivies because that’s not the kind of experience I’m looking for. My goal was never HYPS. And while I did say that I want to be around intelligent people, and I do, I believe that there are other marks of intelligence that can be just as telling, like how a person expresses themselves or the quality and depth of their thoughts.

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@hopeful1660 : I have little interest in Harvard other than with respect to its significant international academic reputation. I used that example, an uncommon one for me, along with Stanford, out of convenience. Earlier I’d thought you may have sincerely asked for opinions as to whether you will find meaningful academic differences between your choices (based on rankings or other factors). As to whether standardized scoring profiles, as an indicator, may reflect the actual classroom experience, my own response was “Maybe.” I meant that quite literally, as in I really don’t know, simultaneously, how the students at both Hamilton and Bates engage with their academics.

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Regarding this point, the direction of this runs decidedly against my indended meaning. If in the process of selecting a class based on broad and deep factors, the result returns a high scoring group, this indicates a different set of priorities then that which would be entailed in selecting for high scoring students.

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@merc81 My post was meant to highlight my priorities, not to disrespect or disregard your contributions to the thread. Truly, I apologize if I offended you and I am sincerely asking for opinions. I think qualitative assessments of the environments at both schools will be more helpful to my decision making than, as doschicos put it, “parsing data.” :slight_smile:

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OP, the more you reveal, it seems you’re bright and confident enough to make either school work.
But we don’t know much about you, what possible major, how active you are or want to be, particular strengths or interests, outside academics. Anything you want to share?

D1 had several hs friends who went to Ham, they were as happy there as she was at Bates. But the final ‘fit and thrive’ is individual.

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Any insight regarding the relative strength of the political science and international relations programs at each?

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@lookingforward I’m interested in pretty common majors like econ, psych, politics and the social sciences in general. Because of the overall quality of Bates and Hamilton I assumed that all three majors (econ, psych, politics) are well developed and strong and thus haven’t been too worried about that aspect, but please anyone correct me if I’m wrong. Also, I am interested in politics because I am considering going into law, and that seems like the liberal arts equivalent of pre-law. Again, please correct me if I’m wrong.

Socially, I’d like to have some friends with whom I can go on casual runs or to the gym to stay in shape. I think I’d equally enjoy watching sports games and concerts/musical performances. I also think doing day trips to nearby cities/things to do sounds really fun. I know that Lewiston is close enough to Portland and potentially Boston to be able to do day trips. Is Clinton close to anything? I would prefer if I had more recreational options besides on-campus events and outdoorsy activities (e.g. hiking).

It’s important to me that the school I go to emphasizes teaching and learning more than just academics, grades, and things you can read in a book. One of the reasons I want to go to a small LAC is because I hope to find more focus on personal growth. The Purposeful Work initiative at Bates is the kind of thing I’m talking about. Does Hamilton have their own initiatives? Even if they don’t, is the community such that purpose/character is a priority, anyway?

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I’d also be interested in anyone’s answer to @Chembiodad’s question

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@hopeful1660 I would suggest that attempting to analyze the curriculum differences and notoriety of individual programs for two schools so similar is pointless. You could look up professor ratings, recent graduate placements, etc., but in the end it will be more about what you do when you’re there than what others have done or think. If you’re down to a few schools…go where you feel like you belong. If you are engaged with the professors and other students, you’ll be well positioned when you’re ready to leave. Don’t over think it.

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@EyeVeee That’s actually what I was trying to say about the different majors: I’m not worried about the curriculum. Thank you though for reminding me that it’s really about what I do there and not to overthink it (as I’m prone to do). Kids can forget that pretty easily

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Regarding location, Clinton has a very cute little downtown area, but don’t think it is in walking distance of the college. At Bates, Lewiston is not as cute, but you can easily walk to places from campus. Hamilton is about 10 miles from Utica and 40 miles from Syracuse.
I think you will get better answers to your questions regarding locale, activities nearby, and community service, by asking Hamilton students when you visit next week.

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Hamilton seems to bring the world to their students since the campus is remote. Derek Jeter and Hillary Clinton were among recent speakers, and they bring in performers as well. The town of Clinton is charming, albeit remote, but most of the action is on campus. I do not know if Lewistown would be much more exciting. Hamilton students might go to Syracuse and Bates students to Portland?
Hamilton seems a very intellectual environment, with learning for the joy of learning. It also seems warm and casual, with a great balance of athletes, artists, etc., so you would get your opportunity for both games and concerts. I have not visited Bates yet, but it sounds like it will be similar.
There was something very special about Hamilton…

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I have to put in a good word for Bates’ Short Term. This is a mini-term after the end of the two traditional terms (a 4-4-1 academic schedule) that offers teachers and students the opportunity to do something a little out of the norm. Students are required to do two but many students do three because they’re generally fun and interesting. Some are taught as traditional on-campus courses which are often in areas where faculty members have a special interest but which might not be appropriate to teach every year. Others are practitioner-taught courses (examples below) or travel Short Terms with financial aid available.

The advantage of doing this in the spring, as opposed to the winter when many schools do it, is that spring is a good time for field work and a ST can lead straight into summer work or travel, for instance going from a ST in China to traveling the country on one’s own. In the year(s) a student doesn’t do a Short Term they’re out of school a bit earlier than their peers so they can get a jump on internships or summer jobs.

Some traditional Short Terms
-Tokyo Central: The Modern Metropolis in Literature, Film, and Culture
-The Natural Science of Honeybees
-Tour, Teach, Perform
-Mathematical Image Processing
-Pulp Magazines and the Filmmakers Who Loved Them: The Birth of American Genres
-Wilde Times: Scandal, Celebrity, and the Law
-Politics of Race, Gender, and Sexuality in Brazil
-Orchestration
-Redesign of Introduction to Neuroscience
-Feminisms of the 1970s and 1980s

Some travel Short Terms:
AS/CI s13: Literature and Culture of China
BIOs32: The Ecology and Evolutionary Biology of the Galapagos Archipelago
ES/EU s28: Green City Germany: Experiments in Sustainable Urbanism
GEO s39: Geology of the Maine Coast by Sea Kayak
THEA s33: Central European Theater and Film

Some practitioner-taught Short Terms:
-Business of The Arts, led by Sara Juli, founder and director of Surala Consulting

-Digital Marketing: Changing the Art and Science of Marketing, led by Ashley Hart ’91, digital marketing consultant, founder of Ashley Hart Marketing

-Practicum in Healthcare Administration, led by Shannon Banks ’85, veteran healthcare administrator and Principal of BanksBellwether Strategy & Organization Development

-Practicum in Mediation and Restorative Justice, led by: Barbara Blazej P’96, M.Ed., and Margaret Micolichek, M.A, -Restorative Practices Collaborative of Maine; and Elaine Bourne, J.D., Community Mediation Services Program of Volunteers of America, Northern New England

-Practicum in Project Management: From Zero to Sixty: Project Management Bootcamp, led by John Stadler, serial entrepreneur in non-profit and for-profit projects, angel investor, school founder.

-Brand Culture Building, led by brand consultant Peter Bysshe ’93, Bysshetank and Hitchcock Partners.

-Consulting for Strategy Development, led by consultant Fisher Qua ’06, advising the Bates Residential Life team on a new peer health program. Using successful consulting techniques you can carry with you anywhere.

-Filmmaking, The Creative Process, led by Wiebke von Carolsfeld, writer, director editor of feature films, including The Saver (2016), STAY (2013) and Marion Bridge (2002) See the students’ final videos and screenplays here!

-Journalism in an Age of Media Explosion, led by editor and writer Peter Moore ’78, most recently Editor of MensHealth Magazine, author of many articles and books, with guest speakers from every corner of the industry. See their news site Batezfeed!

-Music Production, Recording and Mixing, led by producer Jonathan Wyman ’97, This Sounds Good production company. more…

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@Sue22, thx so much - I will make sure my DD sees this before we head up to accepted students day on the 24th!

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@Sue22 , we had the opportunity to sit in on a meeting in which various Bates faculty members spoke of their short term courses, how it allowed them to take their affection for their work outside the usual bounds of the classroom. Or, come up with new ideas that intrigued them. Such excitement from them.

Your post is what I meant, much earlier on this thread, about digging deeper. Yes, FA is available for various travel experiences, depending on one’s circumstances. There are also semester abroad opps, some at no additional cost over the usual, plus a spending stipend.

Bates is one of those that “does what it does very well.” And there’s really nothing wrong with Lewiston, which has evolved/continues to, by leaps.