<p>For your information, there are now more than 25,000 retired teachers in California earning in excess of $75,000 annually. The percentage of retired teachers earning over this threshold has increased by over 70% in the last 3 years. No matter how much teachers feel they are underpaid, this trend in not sustainable. Underfunded pension liabilities in Ca. are becoming a huge problem, and it is only a matter of time before we have significant pension reform in ca.</p>
<p>thumper1 and emeraldkity, a Master’s takes less time than a SECOND Bachelor’s. It is under two years to get a Master’s degree, but four years to get a bachelor’s from scratch. Sorry about the confusion. I was answering post #196 on this page – lje62’s daughter already has a bachelor’s degree.</p>
<p>When I spoke about the lack of respect for teachers, I was speaking as a daughter of two public-school teachers and friend of current and ex-teachers. The teaching profession has been gradually losing respect over the last several decades. Some view it as “if you can’t; teach.” I don’t want to make this into a political discussion, but certain news “pundits” have issued diatribes against teachers lately because of the Wisconsin situation, claiming that teachers don’t even work full days or full years and don’t deserve the money they do have. Teachers get a lot of pressure from school boards and parents – stress they cannot do anything about. It takes a very special person to do this job.</p>
<p>By the way, in Washington state, teachers can be initially certified without a master’s degree, but are essentially required to obtain one within five years.</p>
<p>PA.'s state owned universities generate lots of teachers for neighboring states. Our illustrious governor is proposed to slash every form of public education, including slashing the state funding for these state owned universities by 50%. That translates to eliminating one-quarter of their funds for education. If he gets his way, the public universities in PA will suffer massive layoffs and program eliminations. </p>
<p>I guess the Governor figures they can just eliminate their entire education departments because no school district in PA will be able to hire a new teacher until the Governor is replaced in 3.5 years.</p>
<p>^ LOL!! I thought that screenname said charlie sheen!</p>
<p>It seems fairly common in the Ed world to find 5th-year masters’ programs-- a one-year intensive that’s started right after getting a BA in education. (If your BA was in something else, a masters’ is typically two years.) That’s what my D, who is currently a junior in an Ed school, is planning on doing. She’ll be graduating at the end of next year with a BA and a teaching credential (she’s already started the state testing process) and will go straight to a masters… and then, please god, a job! All these Boomer teachers have to retire sooner or later.</p>
<p>make sure that it is actually a masters program if that is what you want. Many 5th yr programs are just that- a 5th yr program but not an additional degree.</p>
<p>For example-
[Teacher</a> Preparation Programs - Pathways to Becoming a Teacher in Washington](<a href=“http://pathway.pesb.wa.gov/programs]Teacher”>Preparation programs - Professional Educator Standards Board) are the approved programs in Wa state. I imagine each state has their own version.</p>
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<p>It does take a very special person to do this job; and it also takes a well-qualified one also. </p>
<p>When looking abroad for positive models, it is easy to find stories about how teachers are well-respected (and well-compensated) in countries such as South Korea and Finland. In such countries, teaching is considered an elite job. It is also one that is filled by the best and brightest of the next generations of students.</p>
<p>In order to (re)gain a similar level of respect and … a financial compensation in the United States, a lot NEEDS to be done, starting with revamping and refocusing the education of the potential teachers. Many do not like to hear this, but the overwhelming number education schools are filled with the least competitive students at the undergraduate level, and the GRE scores for students in Master’s and EdD is simply abysmal. In addition, the focus on pedagogy and the lack of attention to subject mastery is a major concern. </p>
<p>Again, looking back at the model of Finland, there are vast differences between generalists and specialist, from the required education to the career possibilities. In the US, with the large availability of “easy” Master’s degree in Education, the differences have become meaningless, as careers are defined by tenure and seniority. </p>
<p>As far as the public-at-large, criticizing the 180 days of work, there is a solution … make the profession a 12 month-a-year, 50 weeks-a-yeat affair with payscales and benefits directly comparable to the private sector.</p>
<p>Why do I believe that not very many teachers are prepared to adopt the schedule of the average professional, let alone the schedule of independent professionals.</p>
<p>This is a little bit tangental to the respect for teachers issue:</p>
<p>Have you seen the slam poet Taylor Mali? If not, go to youtube and find his piece on What Teachers Make. It makes you want to shake the hand of every teacher you meet.</p>
<p>D did the 5 year program at BC. She has a dual undergrad degree in elementary education and human development and the M.ED is in special education. She was able to take two courses towards her masters during her senior year and yes, she is employed as a special education inclusion teacher.</p>
<p>As far as the public-at-large, criticizing the 180 days of work, there is a solution … make the profession a 12 month-a-year, 50 weeks-a-yeat affair with payscales and benefits directly comparable to the private sector.</p>
<p>I wish we could have year round schools- it could give us more flexibility which would benefit students.
Our district is eliminating summer school- it already was only available in a few schools & to eliminate it altogether- is to slam the door in the face of students who need it to stay at grade level.
( sorry didn’t mean to go off topic- but mismanagement of scarce public monies is a sore spot with me)</p>
<p>Another off-topic tangent here, as well; however, I think it helps to think about how topics are presented to the public. </p>
<p>Notice how the concept of the teacher work year is being pounded (not by any poster here, but in the general political conversation) as “180 days.” This is not without purpose … certain political types know that 180 days will equal half a year of work, on a visceral level, to much of the public.</p>
<p>Teachers in my county are scheduled to work 194 days, which actually works out to 190 days after taking into account four days of weather closings worked into the schedule.
The comparison, though, is not to 365 days. With weekends off and a two-week vacation, the comparison is to 247 days. Throw in holidays (this varies by business, but I’ll go with the number 10 to represent the 10 federal holidays) and you have 190 days versus 237 days. </p>
<p>Now of course an extra 47 days away from the workplace is a big advantage. But it sure sounds different than when expressed as “working 180 days”. Which is exactly the reason that certain pundits and politicians and interest group representatives opt to use the 180-day phrase. In the past, it was more common to refer to the difference in working days to be expressed as “getting the summers off”, which probably evokes a more realistic comparison in casual language than does the “180 days” phrase. Again, this change has been driven by those who seek to use language to alter the political conversation and is not accidental.</p>
<p>Sorry for the rant. I emphasize that I mean no insult or critique of posters on this thread. Just something that I feel should be added to such conversations. <em>ducks back to the listening corner</em> :)</p>
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<p>Thank you Illyria for your insightful comment. I might add that most professionals with masters degrees tend to have more than 2 weeks of vacation. Pre-teaching, I used to have 4 1/2 weeks of vacation a year as a professional in the private sector. This would reduce your figure comparisons to 225 days for private sector vs. 190 days for teachers.</p>
<p>I also think that with regards to the appropriate salary for a teacher it really depends on the skill and experience of the teacher. For a new teacher straight out of college with limited alternative career options and no experience, a beginning pay scale of $45,000 with benefits is very generous. But, once you have developed some skills after several years (and DO have other career options), a salary of under $50,000 seems pretty meager. This is why many teachers leave for administrative positions, which pay substantially more.</p>
<p>Well, I don’t know anyone with an MBA or JD who takes off more than 2 weeks per year, regardless of what their “vacation days” are listed as… </p>
<p>I have no problem at all with teachers being paid and paid well. I’ve voted yes on every bond referendum in our area, related to teachers pay…However, I have a massive problem with the first in first out policy, regardless of teacher effectiveness. Teachers should keep their job based on performance and not seniority, just like any other tax payer. JMO.</p>
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<p>I agree; cutbacks should be a way of removing the worst and least effective talent. The worst thing about becoming a new teacher today is that your job will continue to be in jeopardy every year for at least the next decade, regardless how effective and hard-working you are.</p>
<p>But from a union standpoint, this traditional guarantee makes it easier for teachers to vote against a “concessions or cutbacks” ultimatum from the budget makers, since a majority of the teachers will always know that THEIR jobs won’t be on the line if they refuse to make concessions.</p>
<p>Just realized that I was using 14 days rather than 10 days for the two-week vacation figure. (Bad me!)</p>
<p>So the 247 days should be 251 days and the 237 days should be 241 days. </p>
<p><em>hangs head and wonders if this error will mean I’ll never ever be accepted into the top senior citizens’ homes</em></p>
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<p>…and the worst thing about being this same teacher 25 years from now without a union is that your job will be in jeopardy every year thereafter because you are too expensive, regardless of how effective and hard-working you are.</p>
<p>No. That’s just catastophizing and hysteria.</p>
<p>An excellent teacher will always find parents to advocate for him/her in a strong way, and will keep their job. </p>
<p>The de-unionization of the teaching profession is good news for the kids, good news for the really good teachers and good news for our ailing U.S. academic competitiveness.</p>
<p>My daughter’s two best high school teachers this year are a brand new woman who is fantastic, seriously amazing. And a woman who is retiring this year who has recieved, already, so many cards from old students and past parents that we are trying to figure out how to plan the party for her. She is fantastic. No way she would have been let go one day before SHE was ready to walk out that door.</p>
<p>AND both of these teachers are tough, don’t give out A’s or B’s without the commensurate effort, but they also TEACH the material.</p>
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<p>I could see that problem easily being fixed by mandating that all major cutbacks would draw equally or proportionally from each seniority bracket (1-5 years, 5-10 years, 10-15 years, etc.). Then the focus would be on eliminating the worst teachers in each bracket, not just the most expensive.</p>
<p>I think people often refer to “180” days because, in our state, students attend 180 days. Teachers are contracted for 184. My district’s teacher then have 20 days which can be allocated however they wish between personal, sick, etc. Wow. In my opinion, that is a lot. The younger teachers especially seem to take most of those days and I think that really affects the learning of the students. Subs cannot do the same job.</p>
<p>Regarding the above mathematical comparisons on “actual” days worked, no matter how you slice it, it is still 7-10 weeks fewer than almost everyone in industry. I agree with the above poster that no professional I know takes more than 2 weeks per year, no matter how much they earn in a given year. At almost all companies, only “x” amount can be carried over too, usually 5 or so days.</p>
<p>Regarding the above post about a 25 year teacher being afraid of being let go due to high pay. Maybe, probably not. That’s how it’s been in industry for decades now.</p>
<p>I am all for paying good teachers more. They deserve it. The bad ones, however, need to go and there needs to be a much better, more streamlined process to do so.</p>
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<p>I am sorry, but the reason why this issue is being “pounded” with such repetition is that it is one basic tenets of all collective bargaining agreements. Be it 180 days of 194 days, it represents the MAXIMUM number of days of expected work, often with a maximum expectation for hours performed.</p>
<p>No matter how much spin is added to the equation, it remains that parents would be hard pressed to find any teacher in a public school in the summer months and in the various extended holday periods. This is supported by statistics that estimate the average work total of teachers at 1,314 hours per annum, compared to a typical worker who clocks in 1,928 hours, short of overtime. </p>
<p>As I wrote earlier, the easy solution to eliminate the “pounding” and the aggravation of the constant criticism is … to align the performance to a more “normal” yearly workload. Simply stated, wanna stop the critics once for all? Start campaigning for your unions to drop the charades they have relied on for way too long in their extortionary bargaining agreements. Wanna get more criticism? Keep on relying on those scare tactics and goon-like behavior exhibited in Madison, WI for the past weeks. </p>
<p>If there is any validity to the historical claim that the shorter school year was based on agrarian cycles, time has come to realize that we no longer live in such archaic society. We now have the amazing dichotomy of wanting 24 hours access to most goods and services, inexistant rest and holidays for anyone who provide such goods and services, but accepting that the delivery of education represents about 15% of the year.</p>