Berekely vs Northwestern !?!?

<p>Actually, I have never seen a TA teach a class at Berkeley. I saw one TA teach a summer school course, but thats it. </p>

<p>Personally, I did not know how great professors at Berkeley were, until I went to another private school for some graduate courses. It was then that I realized how different my education at Berkeley was. </p>

<p>Until you graduate, you really don't appreciate how advanced your viewpoint of the world is, until you bump heads with someone who was taught under a different philosophy. Personally, I naively thought that everyone had the same viewpoint as me in many issues. Its pretty strange when you bombard a professor with questions about what you learned at Berkeley, and they actually admit that you are right. Its a very very strange feeling.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Everybody I ask about berkeley, (except for you, so far) says that the school is good because the degree will get them a good job.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This serves to prove that Berkeley is the antithesis of an "intellectual haven." Personally, I find it hard to believe that an "intellectual haven" would admit students with an 1100 SAT. If you want to talk "intellectual haven" then think UChicago, Swarthmore, etc.</p>

<p>uc_benz, I think there is a flaw at ucb admision(in the last few years) that they admit students in the 900-1100, they are trying to get around the affirmative action. The new Chief(I'm blanking out at the moment, the exact title) did try to change that and this year there is less of students like that.</p>

<p>Yeah, everbody knows that the SAT's rule! If you don't have at least 1500 than you are a complete loser and can't contribute to any "intelectual haven."</p>

<p>Ivies have 6-8% that have below 1100 SAT using best verbal + best math method. </p>

<p>This is why our country is in recession. Because there is no equality.</p>

<p>Let's face it. An "intellectual" person is not going to get an 1100. The very meaning of intellectual implies that they have a high degree of knowledge. 1100 is not "dumb" by any means, but certainly not intellectual.</p>

<p>And there are far more <1100's at Berkeley than Ivy League. That's what sports are for.</p>

<p>"Ivies have 6-8% that have below 1100 SAT" </p>

<p>You make these completely outrageous and unsupportable assertions!</p>

<p>How about proving it?</p>

<p>Not to get involved in this debate but there are clearly some Ivy League Students that may have below 1200 SATs</p>

<p>Information from Common Data Sets:
Below 600 V, Below 600 M</p>

<p>Dartmouth:
7% V, 6% M
<a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eoir/pdfs/cds_200405_02.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~oir/pdfs/cds_200405_02.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Cornell:
12% V, 6% M
<a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_200405.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Princeton:
4% V, 2% M
<a href="http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In comparison for Berkeley, from the Common Data set (2003-latest data), Ivy's above was for 2004):</p>

<p>23% 500-599 V, 15% 500-599 M
9% 400-499 V, 5% 400-499 M
1% 300-399 V, 0% 300-399 M</p>

<p><a href="http://cds.vcbf.berkeley.edu/content.cfm?formyears=2003-2004&section=c%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cds.vcbf.berkeley.edu/content.cfm?formyears=2003-2004&section=c&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For those curious about Northwestern (since this is a Berkeley Northwestern thread, from the Common Data set (latest available data 2003):
Below 600 V, Below 600 M</p>

<p>9% V, 6% M</p>

<p><a href="http://ugadm.northwestern.edu/commondata/2003-04/c.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ugadm.northwestern.edu/commondata/2003-04/c.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You cannot conclude about any of these schools how many <1200 SAT's they have because it breaks them down into seperate components. I know many international people who 800 M 650 V. However they did bad on the verbal because it's not their native language.</p>

<p>Yep, that's why I said "may have below 1200 SATs." It is meant as a guide for comparison and it is extremely unlikely that every student that had a sub 600 on math or verbal had enough to clear the 1200 bar with the other score.</p>

<p>I realized since these were meant for comparison, I should give the 2003 Ivy League data for comparison with the scores for Berkeley and Northwestern (which were for 2003 and not 2004).</p>

<p>Information from 2003 Common Data Sets:
Below 600 V, Below 600 M</p>

<p>Dartmouth:
9% V, 8% M
<a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Eoir/pdfs/cds2003_04.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~oir/pdfs/cds2003_04.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Cornell:
14% V, 8% M
<a href="http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_2003-04.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://dpb.cornell.edu/irp/pdf/CDS/cds_2003-04.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Princeton:
4% V, 2% M
<a href="http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2003.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://registrar1.princeton.edu/data/common/cds2003.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Northwestern:
9% V, 6% M
<a href="http://ugadm.northwestern.edu/commondata/2003-04/c.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ugadm.northwestern.edu/commondata/2003-04/c.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Berkeley:
33% V, 20% M
<a href="http://cds.vcbf.berkeley.edu/conten...-2004&section=c%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cds.vcbf.berkeley.edu/conten...-2004&section=c&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"You cannot conclude about any of these schools how many <1200 SAT's they have because it breaks them down into seperate components. I know many international people who 800 M 650 V. However they did bad on the verbal because it's not their native language."</p>

<p>YES, LIKE ME (620 V, 800 M)</p>

<p>English is not my thing :(</p>

<p>Oh yeah. BTW, the stats for Berkeley is based on best one sitting score. While the private schools use best verbal + best math. You don't have to take anything more than High school algebra to see the difference. </p>

<p>The 25th-75th percentile is more 1240~1250 - 1490~1500 at Berkeley. With an incoming freshman class of 3500-4000, that means there are anywhere from 700-900 incoming freshman at Berkeley who have a best verbal + best math score of 1500+ SAT. </p>

<p>I would say Berkeley is best suited for the genius with a penchant for multi - disciplinary talents. Such as a charismatic engineer, or a future CEO with a good feel for worldly views, or a congressman who understands Silicon Valley tech issues. Not just one thing.</p>

<p>Cmon guys, nitpicking over SAT scores is pointless when trying to compare schools. It's maybe a decent measure of raw intelligence (and standardized-test taking ability), but there's a lot more to learning than that. If schools just wanted the most intelligent people, they'd have everyone take IQ tests, admit the top scores, and be done with it like Mensa. This is why lots of people even with perfect scores are rejected by your HYPMS. Nobody could really delude themselves into thinking that either Berkeley or Northwestern is as selective as those, could they? USC has an even higher mean/median (can't remember which, maybe both) SAT than Berkeley, but more selective? no.</p>

<p>(1550 here, not good enough for MS, but I'll bet my right leg I would have had no trouble getting into Northwestern.)</p>

<p>KissingThe Shadows: "(1550 here, not good enough for MS, but I'll bet my right leg I would have had no trouble getting into Northwestern.)"</p>

<p>I would say that Northwestern would reject at least 1/3 of individuals with your scores:</p>

<p>Percent admitted:</p>

<p>ACT 35-36 (equivalent to 1560-1600 SAT): 66.5%
SAT 750-800 Verbal: 51.7%
SAT 750-800 Math: 46.7%</p>

<p>Valedictorian: 53.8%
<a href="http://www.ugadm.northwestern.edu/freshman/facts/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ugadm.northwestern.edu/freshman/facts/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For SAT:ACT conversions
(1550 would actually convert to an ACT of 34, but the 49.9% acceptance rate at NU also includes an ACT of 33 which converts to SATs as low as 1460, hence I use the higher 35-36 ACT for you)
<a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/sat/cbsenior/html/stat00f.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/sat/cbsenior/html/stat00f.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>College admissions is a crap shoot at any elite school and certainly not worth betting your right leg on.</p>

<p>As a cautionary tale, here is a mother's posting about her highly talented National Merit Scholar son "he quotes Shakespeare as easily as he writes equations in his physics class. His passion for classical music has brought him joy and wonderful performance opportunities" from a very competitive suburban HS who didn't get into college anywhere including Oberlin, Wash U and Penn:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=47867%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=47867&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>West Sidee: "Oh yeah. BTW, the stats for Berkeley is based on best one sitting score. While the private schools use best verbal + best math. You don't have to take anything more than High school algebra to see the difference.
The 25th-75th percentile is more 1240~1250 - 1490~1500 at Berkeley."</p>

<p>You are thus giving 50-60 points to Berkeley due to private schools best verbal + best math
(Berkeley's listed 25th percentle/75th percentile
1190/1440
<a href="http://cds.vcbf.berkeley.edu/content.cfm?formyears=2003-2004&section=c%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://cds.vcbf.berkeley.edu/content.cfm?formyears=2003-2004&section=c&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/p>

<p>Ok, let's do the algebra based on the statistics (<a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/research/pdf/rn05_10756.pdf%5B/url%5D):"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/research/pdf/rn05_10756.pdf):&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>51% of SAT takers only take the SAT once (Table 1). So for these students, scores at private colleges do not have added advantage.</p>

<p>38% of test takers took it twice and 10% three times (1% 4 or 5 times).
For these remaining 49%, it gets slightly tricky. For the two time takers, if both verbal and math go up (or stay the same), or both verbal and math go down, there is no added advantage for the private colleges. Only if one goes up and one goes down on the second sitting is there an advantage. In the score range for those accepted to Berkeley (so we are not talking about students with less than 430 verbal or math scores), between 40-50% of verbal or math scores go up and 25-35% go down (the majority between 20-70 points either way)(Table 5). Therefore by random chance here, approximately 13.5% (~0.45 x ~0.30) of second time test takers will see one score go up and one go down (arguing that takers who go up in one should go up in the other brings this percentage down). These 13.5% of two sitting SAT applicants (therefore 5% of total applicants (0.135 x 0.38)) will add to the private schools SAT averages but how much? Berkeley uses best sitting. So between the two sittings, Berkeley will choose the one that was higher (meaning the one where the verbal or math was higher than the other verbal or math was down). Berkeley's disadvantage, therefore, is by the amount the divergent verbal or math score goes down. We can give Berkeley the benefit here and count the average decline for test takers of above 580 in either section (since higher scores decline more). On the verbal, of the decliners (again, all derived from table 5), ~9% (~3/34) will decline ~90 points, ~29% (~10/34) ~60 points, and ~62% (~21/34) ~30 points, for an average decline of ~44 points. On the math, of the decliners, ~7% (~2/29) will decline ~90 points, ~28% will decline ~60 points (~8/29), and ~66% (19/29) will decline ~30 points, for an average decline of ~43 points. Therefore, for 5% of the total applicants (the ~13.5% of second time test takers (38%) with divergent (one up, one down) verbal or math scores), private colleges have ~44 points added to their applicants score.</p>

<p>What about the 10% that took the test three times? Mean scores for each subsequent testing show an increase of 7-13 points on the verbal score and 8-16 points on the math score (page 1). So for three time SAT takers you could expect an average gain of 14-26 for verbal and 16-32 for math. So there is a strong possibility that both verbal and math sections were higher on one of the two subsequent sittings (converting it to a two sitting situation for modeling purposes) or that the decline of the verbal or math score of the highest combined test that Berkeley uses is less than the 44 points seen when only two tests are used (for privates to gain more than 44 points the highest gain test would have to have both the highest gain in either verbal and math coupled with the greatest decline of the other score from the other two sittings). Therefore, it is reasonable to use a 44 point advantage for three time takers as well that had divergent scores (~1.5% of total takers (~13.5% of the 10% three time takers).</p>

<p>Thus:
51% took the test once, no benefit
49% took the test more than once, ~13.5% of these had a benefit of ~44 points</p>

<p>~7% of the total (0.135 x 0.49) have an average benefit of ~44 points.
The overall benefit for private colleges' SAT scores is only 3 points (0.07 x 44), nowhere near the 50-60 points you give them.</p>

<p>Westsidee,</p>

<p>any comments?</p>

<p>I would bet that most applicants to the very competitve colleges take the test more than once at a much higher rate than those applying to non-competitive schools who just need a score to submit. They also tend to be from wealthier families who can afford to spend the money more than once.</p>

<p>Ok, let's say that every single accepted applicant to a very competitive college took the test more than once (instead of 49%, as for all SAT takers). That would only raise the overall benefit for private colleges' SAT scores to 6 points (0.135 x 44).</p>