<p>Why does rankings for undergrand and grad so differ for public schools?</p>
<p>I think taking the overall sum of the grad rankings can give a more accurate picture of the undergrad depth and quality too if you eliminate certain programs like med schools that are exclusively grad in nature. While the UG may not exactly be the sum of the parts, the strength of the parts should be considered. If you go to major in A and then decide to switch to B it is comforting to know that A and B are both pretty good--and even Z if you wish.</p>
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Yale's Law school is considered top 5
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<p>YLS is part of the trinity, so it is at least top 3, whereas UMich is sometimes top 5 but not always. YLS has typically been considered the #1 law school in the nation for a longgg time; only Harvard occassionally challenges it.</p>
<p>Grief:</p>
<p>Rankings for grad schools are heavily dependent on the quality of the faculty as measured in several areas, but most notably in publication history, grants obtained, etc. The quality of student at top grad schools in discrete fields is a given.</p>
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The prestige, Michigan's Law and MBA programs are considered top 5 (according to most major rankings and professional polls) and its Medical school top 10. Yale's Law school is considered top 5, its Medical school top 10 and MBA program is generally ranked out of the top 15. If you chose to leave other professional programs out, they are pretty even, but Engineering is a major professional program.
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<p>Again, you are cherry-picking. </p>
<p>YOU say Mich is a Top 5 Law school. USNWR says otherwise, and I agree. YOU say Mich is a Top 10 Med school. USNWR says otherwise, and I agree.</p>
<p>YOU say Yale's SOM is ranked outside the Top 15. USNWR says otherwise, and I agree.</p>
<p>I also find it curious how you have totally skirted the Cornell issue.</p>
<p>Alex, many times you base a lot of your postings on fact, and other times you base them on something completely subjective (case and point our many arguments about Yale SOM)... </p>
<p>In this instance, where you have Michigan and Cornell ranked as Tier II in professional programs and Yale ranked Tier III... I'm sorry but that just doesn't jibe with either the numbers OR reality.</p>
<p>Well, yes and no on this ranking....I am a Berkeley-o-phile, so of course I love to see the university's innate quality recognized, but to be fair:</p>
<p>Harvard suffers a lot in the professional rankings because of it's engineering ranking, inordinately so if you are not weighting things. One of the amazing things is that both Stanford and Berkeley are very solid across the board in all fields, it is true. But then wouldn't it be fair to either exclude engineering or include medicine? And if you did both, Harvard would move to the top. If you made a further stretch and included the top West Coast med school, University of California, San Francisco as Berkeley's since they were started close to the same time as UC schools when no others existed, are the flagship institutions in their respective categories, and have joint degrees and combination degrees and shared programs, things would be equalized at where they are now, Berkeley would come to more parity with Stanford. But how fair would that be?</p>
<p>I think Alexandre's methodology makes the most sense. </p>
<p>But then the cut-offs for different tiers begin to look arbitrary.... Rankings always need to be dissected to understand what they signify.</p>
<p>Alexandre--Where do you get NYU's law school as number 7? I think it is far lower.</p>
<p>Actually NYU Law was #4 last year in USN</p>
<p>^^ Yes, NYU's Law School has been in the top 5 for awhile and usually swaps places or ties Columbia.</p>
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But then the cut-offs for different tiers begin to look arbitrary
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<p>In fact they are far from it. It's completely biased if anything. If it were totally arbitrary, then Michigan wouldn't always come up smelling like the Rose Bowl.</p>
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In fact they are far from it. It's completely biased if anything. If it were totally arbitrary, then Michigan wouldn't always come up smelling like the Rose Bowl.
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<p>Well, let's face it, Berkeley cherry-picked this ranking because it included engineering, in which it's tops, as a professional school, but not medicine which it doesn't have -- and UC San Francisco is really a separate institution whatever bonds they have. [And I can see both sides about ranking engineering as professional or not. But on the grad level, which I think this is, I guess I'd go with not, to be totally fair.]</p>
<p>If engineering's included, Michigan is equal in your debate with Alexandre. And if not, Yale's on top. Yale's got law as its crown jewel, and Michigan has engineering.</p>
<p>Can't we all just get along? They're both amazing.</p>
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If engineering's included, Michigan is equal in your debate with Alexandre. And if not, Yale's on top. Yale's got law as its crown jewel, and Michigan has engineering.</p>
<p>Can't we all just get along? They're both amazing.
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<p>You know what? I might have let it slide if Alex put Michigan and Yale on the same tier... (perhaps)...</p>
<p>But the fact that he puts Michigan in Tier II and then demotes Yale to Tier III -- and does so in such a matter-of-fact manner -- I have to object -- esp. since the evidence, numbers and reality run counter to such claims.</p>
<p>... quibbling over top 5 vs. top 10?</p>
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... quibbling over top 5 vs. top 10?
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<p>no. quibbling over bias.</p>
<p>"You know what? I might have let it slide if Alex put Michigan and Yale on the same tier... (perhaps)...</p>
<p>But the fact that he puts Michigan in Tier II and then demotes Yale to Tier III -- and does so in such a matter-of-fact manner -- I have to object -- esp. since the evidence, numbers and reality run counter to such claims."</p>
<p>The_prestige, you are the one cherry picking here. Business, Law and Medical schools aren't the only professional programs. </p>
<p>Michigan's professional programs, at the very, VERY least, are as good as Yale's, IF you decide to cherry pick BIG TIME! Yale does indeed have a better Law school than Michigan, albeit fractionally. But that's where Yale's advantage ends. Michigan and Yale have equal medical schools (like I said, those two schools have exchanged leads in medical school rankings over the years) and Michigan's Business school is better than Yale's. So if you chose to chery pick and limit professional programs to just three, I would definitely agree than Michigan and Yale are pretty even. But I did not cherry pick. I included all the professional programs ranked by the USNWR, which includes Education, Engineering and Public Affairs. Those programs may be meaningless to you, but to many, they are legitimate graduate professional programs. </p>
<p>And there is no need for name-calling. I think we can express ourselves effectively without resorting to such means.</p>
<p>Alex, your backpedaling is marvelous.</p>
<p>So now Michigan and Yale are, more or less, equal? Yale Law School is the no. 1 law school in the nation and has been for quite a while. I have NEVER heard Michigan Law School referred to as the BEST in the nation (better than YLS AND HLS for instance). So I won't concede that - not even an inch - Yale blows Michigan away in Law IMO. You say medicine is a wash, but Yale's medical school is ranked higher period. So that is 2-0... which leaves us with b-school. I've made my opinions abundantly clear in the MBA forum, so, let's leave it as a wash IMO. </p>
<p>Therefore, if anything, Yale's Law and Med > Michigan's Law and Med and let's call the business school a wash... Therefore, Yale is superior.</p>
<p>... btw, did I call you a name?</p>
<p>"I have NEVER heard Michigan Law School referred to as the BEST in the nation (better than YLS AND HLS for instance)." </p>
<p>Funny that you should mention it. In the late 80s and early 90s, the USNWR ranked Michigan law #2 or #3 in the nation. Jack Gourman also ranked Michigan Law #2 in the nation throughout the 80s and 90s. The Insider's Guide to Law schools generally ranks Michigan Law #3 in the nation. In the 70s, 80s and early 90s, when people in the Legal professional used the term "holy trinity" of Law Schools, they were refering to Harvard, Michigan and Yale. So there was indeed a time when Michigan Law was ranked 2nd or third in the nation. Of course, that isn't the case today. </p>
<p>"Yale blows Michigan away in Law IMO." </p>
<p>I have never heard anybody make such a claim. Yale Law is indeed better, but Michigan is still considered one of the top 6 or 7 Law schools in the land, by Legal Scholars and Law firms anyway. </p>
<p>"You say medicine is a wash, but Yale's medical school is ranked higher period." </p>
<p>Rankings fluctuate and one must look at several years to get the whole picture. Last year, Yale was ranked 9 and Michigan 11. The year before that, Michigan was #9 and Yale #11. Michigan's Peer Assessment score and Assessment score by Residency Directors are always higher than Yale's. There is no clear leader in medicine between those two programs. </p>
<p>"... which leaves us with b-school. I've made my opinions abundantly clear in the MBA forum, so, let's leave it as a wash IMO." </p>
<p>Michigan has been ranked ahead of Yale in Business forever, and the gap isn't shrinking. The USNWR has ranked Yale SOM between #15 and #20 for the last 10 years (Ross is generally ranked in or around the top 10) and Business Week has ranked Yale SOM between #18 and #23 since 1988 (Ross is generally ranked in or around the top 5). Your opinion is fine, but let us stick to the offical rankings shall we? Very few people would agree that Yale SOM is equal to Ross. Maybe in the future (although there is no evidence of this), but not today and certainly not in the past. </p>
<p>"... btw, did I call you a name?" I guess you think calling people "biased" and "backpedelars" is perfectly acceptable and polite.</p>
<p>Finally, any professional program that leaves out Engineering is incomplete...unless one is "cherry picking" of course, in which case, leaving Engineering out is perfectly acceptable.</p>
<p>In short, at the very least, assuming we decide to cherry pick, Michigan and Yale's professional programs are roughly equal. But if one includes all the major professional programs, Michigan is better than Yale. Not that it matters because people attending graduate school are focused on just one field.</p>
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And if you did both, Harvard would move to the top. If you made a further stretch and included the top West Coast med school, University of California, San Francisco as Berkeley's since they were started close to the same time as UC schools when no others existed, are the flagship institutions in their respective categories, and have joint degrees and combination degrees and shared programs, things would be equalized at where they are now, Berkeley would come to more parity with Stanford. But how fair would that be?
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<p>Well, to follow that logic, it should be noted that Harvard has extensive ties with MIT, and many Harvard engineering students end up camping out down there, and the two schools run numerous shared programs, particularly in research. For example, I know one Harvard doctoral student who anticipates having only 1 Harvard prof on his dissertation committee - with the other 2 actually coming from MIT (so in many ways, he's more of an MIT student than a Harvard student). Heck, Harvard and MIT almost ended up merging about 100 years ago. </p>
<p>So if it's fair to bundle UCSF with Berkeley, then it's also fair to bundle MIT with Harvard.</p>
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I guess you think calling people "biased" and "backpedelars" is perfectly acceptable and polite.
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<p>Alex, if you were offended, I apologize. </p>
<p>In my defense, it was your VIEW (on a particular subject) that I was claiming was biased (i.e. I didn't call you a bigot) ... and further saying that you are backpedaling on an argument / view doesn't mean that I am branding you a backpedaler (is that even a word?) for life... nuanced for sure, but makes a big difference esp if you are going to accuse me of calling you names.</p>
<p>I think it'd be easier to bundle Berkeley and UCSF than Harvard and MIT. The former two were founded around the same time (five years difference); the latter two, a few hundred years difference. Not only do Berkeley and UCSF share programs/faculty/students/facilities/funds/whatever, but they've always gone hand-in-hand, by general view it seems. Why would Berkeley, a very well-rounded university, not have a grad school for medicine, one of the most popular areas? Was it because they just didn't want it? Didn't have the resources? Didn't think it was relevant? Or did they find that they didn't need it, since UCSF fulfills that role anyway? I think that, for the most part, every program that MIT has, Harvard has.</p>