Berkeley Professor attacks Fundamentals of Science

<p>UCLAri: microevolution can safely be considered a fact. Macroevolution cannot. Don't use the umbrella term "evolution"...it just confuses.</p>

<p>collegeperson12: no one's questioning his intelligence, just his wisdom. Berkeley knows that when they tenure professors they also tenure their opinions and beliefs. This semester alone I've heard countless Bush-bashings during lectures from professors, yet no one's complaining about keeping politics out of the astronomy or music halls. </p>

<p>I think there are many arguments in this thread, but the two main ones (besides the Japan thing) is the classic creationist/evolutionist battle, and the question of whether the Professor should be allowed to say what he's currently saying. The answer to the first one, despite Gutrade's confident assertions, cannot and will not be concluded anytime soon, either by the Professor, any of us, or anyone else. This isn't a concession of defeat, just an acknowledgement that no one's going to be convinced of the other's opinions any time soon. The answer to the second argument should be fairly obvious: let the man express his beliefs. On a purely practical level, it would be a legal and PR nightmare for the Regents if they tried to pacify him. On a moral level, college students are smart enough to absorb all the Bush-bashings and other tangentially related topics that professors are wont to digress to. They'll be smart enough to accept Professor Johnson's beliefs for what they are. Deciding what's right and wrong for the professor to say isn't your decision; it's the decision of the Regents and the professor himself. And yes, they're more qualified to decide than you.</p>

<p>West Sidee,</p>

<p>Stephen Jay Gould himself said that it was fact. All of my biology professors said it was fact. There is no debate in the community.</p>

<p>pookdog,</p>

<p>I'll continue to use the umbrella term because the luminaries in the field did/do so as well. The very notion of micro/macro-evolution is a made up concept in order to categorize it. However, if you have "micro," you will have "macro" just based on time.</p>

<p>Speciation has been observed countless times. That, my friends, is enough proof to settle the debate.</p>

<p>Evolution happens. Micro-evolution. But macro-evolution is not a fact.</p>

<p>What you have here is this argument.</p>

<p>If x then y.</p>

<p>If micro-evolution exists, then evolution exists. </p>

<p>You cannot make the same argument</p>

<p>If evolution exists, then macro-evolution exists. </p>

<p>Its such a simple argument, I feel silly for even writing it...</p>

<p><em>edit</em> I saw UCLAri's argument. Well, claiming that the division of macro and micro was an underhanded way to disclaim the evolutionary theory seems more like an argument based on reasoning and politics rather than a purely scientific one. </p>

<p>Which proves even more that science is turning to literary fallacies to prove their point, rather than scientific ones. Its a good one, whatever professor said that is pretty smart as you can tell, but it does show a deviation from pure science.</p>

<p>I'll let the words of a greater man than me do the talking for a second:</p>

<p>"The basic attack of modern creationists falls apart on two general counts before we even reach the supposed factual details of their assault against evolution. First, they play upon a vernacular misunderstanding of the word "theory" to convey the false impression that we evolutionists are covering up the rotten core of our edifice. Second, they misuse a popular philosophy of science to argue that they are behaving scientifically in attacking evolution. Yet the same philosophy demonstrates that their own belief is not science, and that "scientific creationism" is a meaningless and self-contradictory phrase, an example of what Orwell called "newspeak."</p>

<p>In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science—that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."</p>

<p>Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.</p>

<p>Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.</p>

<p>Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations."</p>

<p>FYI, Stephen Jay Gould believes that micro- and macroevolution are two fundamentally different subjects.</p>

<p>I think when you say speciation, you're referring to phyletic evolution, which is far from enough proof to settle anything.</p>

<p>I'll repeat: we're going to have to agree to disagree here because there is evidence that points both ways. The real question is whether Professor Johnson should be allowed to espouse his dangerous beliefs on those poor unwitting Berkeley students.</p>

<p>pookdogg,</p>

<p>I know he does, but it's not like he believed that they were separate and irreconcilable. This seems to be the fallacy that so many creationists/IDists espouse. It's idiotic.</p>

<p>And why shouldn't phyletic evolution be enough? With enough time (sorry, but anyone who believes that the earth is 6000 years old is a tool) it's going to cause enough change.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The real question is whether Professor Johnson should be allowed to espouse his dangerous beliefs on those poor unwitting Berkeley students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm torn about this. Part of me says that he should have freedom of speech, but another says that Edwards v. Aguillard clearly shows that public schools cannot allow the teaching of creationism. But what are Supreme Court rulings between friends?</p>

<p>Phyletic evolution may cause enough change given incredible amounts of time, but that is simply inconsistent with the arguments posed, and even if the Earth was as old as evolutionists say, phyletic evolution alone would not satisfy the evidence.</p>

<p>The difference between microevolution and macroevolution isn't idiotic, and it's not a fallacy. Simply because Gould thought they weren't irreconcilable doesn't give one the ability to say one is true because the other is.</p>

<p>pookdogg,</p>

<p>How about AMICUS CURIAE BRIEF OF 72 NOBEL LAUREATES, 17 STATE ACADEMIES OF SCIENCE, AND 7 OTHER SCIENTIFIC ORGANIZATIONS (sorry about caps, it was a cut and paste because I'm lazy) who filed an amicus curiae brief with the Supreme Court? Should they not count for something?</p>

<p>At least they should show that international and national opinion weigh largely in favor of a scientific fact.</p>

<p>Well whoever said that, echoed my very first argument. That theories are bound to change based on new evidence that is found. It seems that what made this debate a heated one was when "Evolutionists" here passionately claimed that evolution was an "absolute certainty" and that anyone who disagrees is stupid and heretical to the laws of science.</p>

<p>It seems that they themselves were not appropriated in the views of science above. Stephen Gould himself said this:</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Humans are not the end result of predictable evolutionary progress, but rather a fortuitous cosmic afterthought, a tiny little twig on the enormously arborescent bush of life, which if replanted from seed, would almost surely not grow this t wig again."
- Stephen Jay Gould

[/quote]
</p>

<p>His comment would be not in line with the die hard " you are stupid if you don't believe in evolution" attitude of some on this board.</p>

<p>That, and no, it is enough. According to punctuated equilibrium, you have lots and lots of evolution in spurts, which makes speciation the perfect tool for large changes.</p>

<p>West Sidee,</p>

<p>That quote is not in favor of creationism in any way. Think about it some more.</p>

<p>^ Its not. But it stops short, much much shorter than stating with vehement passion that all those who do not believe in evolution is heretical to science. It is stated with enough loose ends to not impose its views on creationists. </p>

<p>My original stance was that I do not mind if both are taught in high schools. The ability to balance two opposing viewpoints without having a mental breakdown is something all intelligent people should be able to do. Maybe if we stuck to this, then this would be a natural evolutionary process in itself to weed out those who cannot hold two opposing viewpoints, so that we can finally have some progress in this country. The miniscule odds of evolution happening again in this fashion in a repeated experiment shows that there is too much passion and chance in evolutionists arguments to impose their views on everyone.</p>

<p>Who cares if it can't happen again? It happened. </p>

<p>And creationism shouldn't be taught in schools because it's against the law. If you want, go appeal your case up to the Supreme Court.</p>

<p>I have yet to see a good case against evolution. Call me elitist (thank you, in fact) but I'll take the words of every major scientifict organization, Nobel Laureates abound, and National Academy members over Dr. Dino and his Creation Crew.</p>

<p>And all Gould was saying was that we aren't the "end product" of life as so many self-centered humans think. Nothing more, nothing less.</p>

<p>^ Actually, I agree with you about creationism. I just got an image of George Bush declaring war on scientists. </p>

<p>So if we are not the end product of life, then why is the goal of evolution to explain human existence?</p>

<p>It's not. The goal of evolution is to explain life in general.</p>

<p>Anthropology is there to explain the steps up to humans. </p>

<p>I love how humans think they're sooooooo important.</p>

<p>So then evolution and religion all seek to do the same thing. </p>

<p>If evolution is a fact, then what is the point of having consciousness to wonder about the implications of life? How does self consiousness about life fit into the theory of evolutionary progress? Does it have a survival factor?</p>

<p>No, evolution and religion share one big difference:</p>

<p>Science (and evolution at about 3.5 billion years ago) seeks to explain how the universe as we know it formed from the point of the Big Bang until today. It stakes no claim in how the universe came to be prior to that point. </p>

<p>Consciousness is one of the mysteries of science to this day. But we don't just use a priori arguments and assign it some "higher" meaning. We seek to study it with the scientific method.</p>

<p>totally agree with ya on your train of thought UCLAri.</p>

<p>On a lighter note, just how long would it take to teach the creation "theory" ? And I don't mean the time spent refuting other theories, just the time spent explaining the process of divine creation (as opposed to divinity creation which many are certainly familiar with)</p>

<p>You know, this whole creationist thing could save us a lot of money on textbooks. We wouldn't have to trouble kids with geophysics or understanding the difference between living and non-living things or how inorganic material becomes organic material. We could just refer to a list of "THINGS GOD CREATED" before wasting time with misguided thoughts of how things came into existence. I don't know about you, but I feel better knowing I can never understand the origins of the universe since the whole dominion of the Lord is unknowlable to man. We wouldn't even need to hire a teacher with a college degree to teach creationism.</p>

<p>I know a guy who hangs out in front of 7-11 all the time who would be qualified to teach anyone just how creationism works since he makes water all the time.</p>