Berkeley vs Northwestern

College Search & Selection
1

Hi

I have been admitted into both Berkeley and Northwestern, and now have to make the difficult decision. I have applied for Biology with the intention of studying Medicine in the future, but this is something that could change at any time. I am a US citizen but have lived outside of the country for all my life.

  1. Outside of the US Berkeley has a better reputation, what is the view within the US?
  2. I have also heard that since NU is a private school you make better connections and get better job opportunities.
  3. Is the weather a factor that should play a role in my decision? I live in a hot country and am not used to the cold at all so I am worried that I will be miserable during Chicago winters.
  4. I know that classes are a lot smaller in NU so you build closer relationships with the professors. How much does class size matter?
  5. I know this is subjective, but which university has a better social life?

Any other information that could help with my decision would be highly appreciated!

2
  1. In the US, as a whole, I would say it's still Berkeley.
  2. Attending in NU would make better connections in the Midwest, and Berkeley in the West Coast and South. In NY and WS, they're about equal.
  3. If you're not used to cold weather, you'll be miserable living in cold places.
  4. Classes at both schools will be large for introductory subjects, and they become smaller as you progress to the next year level.
  5. I'd say Berkeley being in California and SF is just across the Bay.
3

While I agree with most of what ababon says, I disagree with his assessment of points 3 and 5.

  1. I grew up in arguably the warmest city on earth. Temperatures exceed 42 degrees C (105 F) from late May until early October. I had no trouble adjusting to life in the Midwest. Cold is cold, but there is nothing a good waterproof coat, waterproof, rubber-soled pair of boots and hat cannot take care of!
  2. I do not see how Cal's campus and the Berkeley/SF area are any more conducive to social activity than NU's campus and the Evanston/Chicago area. Both have much to offer.

Between those two, I would go with fit.

4

Berkely vs NU.

Let’s use USNWR as a base guide. NU is 13 and Berkeley is 20. Can anyone here make any meaningful distinction between 13 and 20? You’ll probably find some other measure at which Berkeley is ahead, but again, probably not meaningfully so.

To be honest, both are absolutely top schools and provide similar opportunities. There are differences (weather, feel of campus, etc), but those are personal.

My 2 cents. Given this choice, if you’re a Cal. Resident and can get in-state tuition, Berkeley is hard to turn down otherwise, there’s no clear winner amongst these two. No matter what – there is no wrong choice.

5
  1. Here in New York, they're both considered to be great schools and pretty much at the same level.
  2. Once again, here in New York, there isn't really much of a difference (though it's like what ababon said: for the west coast, Berkeley would be better, but for the midwest, Northwestern would be better)
  3. Weather probably should play a role since that is honestly one of the main differences between the schools. If you can't stand the cold, don't go to Northwestern.
  4. I think there is a considerable difference here. Northwestern's student to faculty ratio is 1:7, while Berkeley's is 1:17.
  5. I would say Berkeley, just because it's a bigger school, and because San Francisco (and California in general) has a much more relaxed vibe than Chicago.
6

It may depend somewhat on where you’re from (and maybe a few other factors such as how long you’ve lived in the USA, or whether you distinguish between graduate and undergraduate education.)
I’m from the Northeast. I generally favor very selective private schools over even the best state universities (if cost is not a factor). I consider class size an important quality factor. I don’t see a big benefit from distinguished faculty if they don’t teach undergrads (or often only do so in big impersonal lecture classes). I also appreciate colleges that draw top students from all over the USA.
http://chronicle.com/article/Interactive-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=147767
http://chronicle.com/article/Interactive-Freshman-Class/129547/#id=110635

What if I were making a hiring decision between 2 applicants, one from each of these schools?
The “brand” would not matter too much (not between these two anyway). I’d want to look at proven skills, internships, research experience … and maybe the GPAs.

We do not have one or a few “national” universities in the USA (like Beijing U, Tokyo U., the Sorbonne, or Oxbridge). We have (or would like to think we have) many excellent schools … so what really matters is what you do with your time once you get in. I suppose this gives us a little more freedom to choose based on cost or “personal fit”.

7

The notion that distinguished faculty at Berkeley do not teach undergrad is wrong.

8

“I think there is a considerable difference here. Northwestern’s student to faculty ratio is 1:7, while Berkeley’s is 1:17.”

lalalemma, that is indeed the desire effect that private universities like to push on parents. The comfort of seeing those warm and fuzzy student to faculty ratios will make any hot blooded parent’s heart melt…and willing to fork over the extra tuition money! :wink:

But there is a catch. That figure only includes NU’s 8,500 undergraduate students. NU deliberately does not include its 12,000 graduate students! Naturally, not all of NU’s graduate students attend programs that undergraduate students attend (Law and Medical school for example), but even when you include graduate programs that enroll undergraduates, you are still looking at 6,000+ graduate students. If you include them in NU’s student to faculty ratio calculation, as Berkeley ethically does it hers, NU’s ratio would be more like 1:12 or even higher. By the way, Northwestern is not the only university to do so. Most private universities leave out their graduate student populations from their student to faculty ratios, and in most cases, graduate students outnumber undergraduate students at private universities.

The fact is, no matter how hard private universities try to convince the world that they provide a personalized classroom experience where faculty really, really, really care about undergraduate students, know them on a first-name basis etc…, there is virtually no difference between their classroom experience and the classroom experience at comparable public universities. There are two main differences:

  1. Most private universities flood their course catalogues with mandatory first-year freshmen seminars. Some find them useful, others completely useless.
  2. Intro-level classes will obviously be larger at larger universities. At a moderate size university, an intro-level class may have 150-300 students in it, while at a large university, that same class may have 300-500 students enrolled in it.

Otherwise, the difference in class size is almost entirely non-existent. And why should it be? Faculty at major research universities are all the same. They are all so busy with raising money for their research, conducting their research, publishing their papers and their books, managing the 5+ PhD students that they are advising etc… that undergraduate instruction will simply not be a priority, no matter what the story books say (shameless quote from Prince Humperdinck)! If one really wants a highly personalized experience, LACs is the way to go.

9

@Alexandre I’m not a parent…thanks for the concern though I guess?
I still think there is a difference because when you look at the numbers, Northwestern has a higher percentage of classes with 20 students or less (can’t imagine why a school would include anything but their undergraduate classes in that number). Berkeley is just so much bigger than Northwestern, so there’s no way around that. However, of course I know that a school like Northwestern isn’t going to give you a “personalized classroom experience,” that’s why I’m pretty much only looking at LACs for myself! But the OP isn’t looking at LACs, so that’s not really relevant.

10

@Alexandre
Yes, the Student:Faculty ratio is a crude metric for comparing class sizes.
I’m skeptical that private universities consistently are less honest than public universities in calculating and reporting this figure … if so, has this story been picked up in the press or in any academic journal? … but there may indeed be too muich wiggle-room for different calculation methods. Fortunately, there are more precise ways to assess class sizes.

For several reasons, I believe that highly selective private universities (like NU) do tend to have significantly smaller classes than state universities (even Berkeley or Michigan) . First, it is indicated in the data reported in the Common Data Sets. The CDS, section J, not only shows a Student:Faculty ratio (in section I2), it also shows undergraduate class size distributions (in section I3). For example, NU reports 1466 undergraduate classes with less than 20 students, which is 75% of the total (1962 classes). NU reports 44 undergraduate classes with 100+ students, which is 2% of the total (1962 classes). In contrast, Berkeley reports 11915 undergraduate classes with less than 20 students, which is 60% of the total (3192 classes). Berkeley reports 270 undergraduate classes with 100+ students, which is 8% of the total (3192 classes), or ~4X NU’s percentage. Berkeley, by the way, seems to have among the the lowest average class sizes of any state research university. UC Davis or UCSD for example report much greater numbers of big classes. Then again, some private unis, such as Cornell, report bigger class sizes than NU (http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/708190-avg-class-size-p1.html)

Second, there is the anecdotal evidence I see on College Confidential, or my own and relatives’ personal experiences at several kinds of institutions. Complaints about huge classes at state universities are fairly common. They seem to be less common for “elite” private universities. Have a look at some of the evaluations on studentreviews.com. On that site, Berkeley gets 32 negative reviews. Northwestern gets 25 negative reviews. I read through the first 18 of the negative Berkeley reviews; of these, I count 11 that complain about big classes. In the 24 negative NU reviews, I do not see a single complaint about big classes (although students complain about other things, such as snobby classmates or heavy workloads … and in a couple of reviews, about professors who don’t have enough time for students).

Third, I’ve compared introductory and intermediate course enrollment numbers reported in the online Fall/Spring course registration pages for several several selective private universities (e.g. Chicago, JHU, Princeton) , state universities (e.g. Berkeley, Michigan), and LACs (such as Williams). Rather than rehash what I’ve reported in other threads, I recommend the OP do this for himself, if he cares about class sizes. Focus on the classes that most interest you, because the overall class size averages may not be reflected consistently in all departments.

I do agree with Alexandre that you’ll also find big classes (>= 50 students, or even 100+ students) at private research universities. Those schools also do use TAs. You may decide that, whether a lecture class has 80 students or 400, a lecture is a lecture (although I think the size can affect office hour availability and other access). I agree with him that if you really want to avoid big classes and TAs, you need to choose a LAC (which for many students have other disadvantages).

11

lalalema, when I mentioned leaving out graduate students, I was referring to the calculation of student to faculty ratio, not class sizes. Where class size is concerned, many universities, including Northwestern, offer a disproportionately large number of mendatory (or “highly recommended”) freshmen seminars. That is usually what drives up the number of classes with fewer than 20 students. You are going to have smaller classes at NU than at Cal, especually in intro-level classes. That is inevitable. But the gap is not as large as the data would suggest…not when comparing apples to apples.

12

There’s a typo there in my preceding post, paragraph 2. That number should be “1915” (989+926) not “11915”. And these numbers are reported in CDS section I, not section J :frowning:

13

Wow thank you all for the valuable information! I change my mind between the two schools very often so I will take a little bit more time to decide. After speaking to a number of different people, I’m at least assured that there is no wrong choice for me!

Alexandre, initially I was deterred from Berkeley because I saw the numbers for the student to faculty ratio but the size of first year classes is pretty large from what you’ve said and from what I have read. I’m sure by making a little bit more effort at Berkeley I would be able to get the same experience with the professors as I would get at NU. I’m still taking this into consideration though, since there is a slight advantage. I guess now it comes to my personal preference.

Another question I have is in regard to GPA. I know this relies on the amount of work I put in, but is it easier to get a higher GPA in either of the schools. I know that both unis are very competitive, but do either one of them have a reputation of being much harder. I am planning on majoring in Biology, if that makes any difference.

14

“1. Most private universities flood their course catalogues with mandatory first-year freshmen seminars. Some find them useful, others completely useless.” —>This isn’t true for Northwestern. There is a very open curriculum. Freshman do not have a mandated schedule and you can begin taking classes in your major as a freshman. Here in the US, schools like Northwestern generally have a better reputation for several reasons.

  1. It’s a highly ranked private institution. Private typically beats public here.
  2. A Northwestern degree is not as easy to come by as a Berkeley degree. Cal has twice as many undergraduates as NU. Including graduate students, Cal is twice as big as NU.
15

1.“It’s a highly ranked private institution. Private typically beats public here…” on CC. Fixed it for you

  1. "A Northwestern degree is not as easy to come by as a Berkeley degree. Cal has twice as many undergraduates as NU. Including graduate students, Cal is twice as big as NU."

Statement #2 makes about as much sense as statement #1.

16

Try looking at online class schedules to see class sizes in your possible majors and other courses of interest. These will be better information than ratios in CDSes.