<p><em>cough</em> most undergrads dont take advantage of the resources berkeley offers <em>cough</em></p>
<p>Do you guys have any opinions on berkeley with a regent's vs columbia (with currently...no...financial aid...)? Oh and I'm going into Molecular Bio and Biochem.</p>
<p>i do know that regents at this school get enormous benefits including something like 10 past tests for every module test in ba-10. moral of story: know a regents scholar if you take ba-10</p>
<p>Among my choices last year were Washington and Lee (a small, private liberal arts college in Lexington, Virginia know for its great program in political science), Georgetown, UCLA, and Berkeley. In the end I came to Berkeley because of the strength of the political science department, and the rhetoric department's program as well as favorable climate, diverse community, and quality of education.</p>
<p>From my own experience, Berkeley does have students who may not be the next Einstein or may not be ready to jump up upon hearing "volunteer." But these aren't all the students. I know students who volunteer at Berkeley High, helping students with their homework. I know students who are motivated, and apply broadly for opportunities. I know students who are competent, working hard to maintaining good grades. I know students to take the challenge and go for the rigorous courses and programs.</p>
<p>And as for myself, I've taken the opportunity to work on program with Asian Political Association, attending seminars held at Berkeley, and going off to do my own pursuits. I met the Swiss Ambassador, numerous scholars in their fields, including Dr. Jan Ross, and heard them speak. </p>
<p>As for the dorms, Berkeley is cool weather. Today, it's about 53 F, which really doesn't scream air conditioner. And in the summer time, it's not too bad either; humid, but far from the humidity seen in Singapore, or closer to home, the American southeast (Lousiana, for example). Students have heaters in their rooms. If your heater isn't working, you file a maintenance request, and they will fix it. I've filed a maintenance request after one of our light bulbs went out. It was fixed by the next day. The maintenance office is quite prompt.</p>
<p>Berkeley isn't for everyone (Q.E.D.), but do take the opportunity to consider Berkeley if it feels right to you.</p>
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[quote]
From my own experience, Berkeley does have students who may not be the next Einstein or may not be ready to jump up upon hearing "volunteer." But these aren't all the students. I know students who volunteer at Berkeley High, helping students with their homework. I know students who are motivated, and apply broadly for opportunities. I know students who are competent, working hard to maintaining good grades. I know students to take the challenge and go for the rigorous courses and programs.
[/quote]
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<p>In other words, the student body is very diverse in terms of what they want to get out of college. You can find all sorts of interesting people to become friends with here. Don't let Polite Antagonis cloud your vision. </p>
<p>Good video that accurately describes the student body: </p>
<p>I especially like these statements: </p>
<p>"The meek, the timid, and the close-minded need not apply." - emphasis on TIMID. Don't expect Berkeley to hold your hand.
"Berkeley is . . chaos." - Refers to the students and their lifestyles.
"So if you're an Independent, motivated, and open-minded go-getter you can expand your mind under some of the best professors in the world or with tattooed kids who scored 1600s on their SAT." - This hints at the fact that not all (most) undergrads at Berkeley are NOT 1600 (2400) scorers. But they are STILL very anxious to do well in their classes. (Polite Antagonis calls these students "GPAwhores."
"You force yourself to just try to be as good as other people." = Many many MANY students compete like there's no tomorrow....MAYBE the majority. </p>
<p>Propaganda video that hints at Berkeley's social and academic atmosphere: </p>
<p>"If you're not independent by the time you get here, you're definetely independent by the time you leave." (hint hint)
"Berkley has fosterd...work-ethic." - NO HAND HOLDING
"If you like the resources of a large university where you have a lot of other brilliant students, a you have a first class faculty, and one of the world's best libraries, and fantastic cultural and intellectual resources then this is the place for you." - In other words, if you want to be intellectual there is NO BETTER PLACE THAN BERKELEY.
"Students that graduate and do well in Berkeley tend to do very well in the outside world." (emphasis on doing well.)</p>
<p>And don't let greatestyen's stupidity cloud your vision too. Its funny how a regent's scholar would defend berkeley despite the fact that the regent experience is quite different from the average Berkeley experience.</p>
<p>"greatestyen>>> ""Berkley has fosterd...work-ethic." - NO HAND HOLDING"</p>
<p>IN FACT they HOLD the hand of regent's scholars by giving them extra professor interaction, free tuition, and among other things, free old tests for hard weeder classes. But I'm glad greatestyen is able to advise the majority of Berkeley students on these things with her "highly" representative experience.</p>
<p>OH MAN, Greatestyen sure has learned a lot about being independent.</p>
<p>"Sakky>> I agree with this. There are FAR easier majors at Berkeley. I'm not going to name them, but they have been discussed before - majors where you really can get very good grades for doing very little work and often times while hardly even showing up.</p>
<p>funnyman >>> sakky, which easy majors would these be?"</p>
<p>Gee, someone who takes knockoff classes or majors in something just because its easy isn't a gpa whore? </p>
<p>""If you like the resources of a large university where you have a lot of other brilliant students ..."</p>
<p>Really, how are these things exclusive to Berkeley? Oh wait they aren't.</p>
<p>These kids are so "smart" that roughly 5-6 times the people at better institutions fare better in law school admissions. This trend is reflected in grad schools and is true for all the top ivies, and to a lesser extent the top lac's. Despite having "so many" smart people, and 5-6 times the student populations at other schools, Berkeley students just can't cut it when it comes to admissions time.</p>
<p>" a you have a first class faculty ...."</p>
<p>If you're lucky enough to get to work with one ... </p>
<p>, "and one of the world's best libraries,"</p>
<p>Won't argue with you there. I'm sure there are lots of kids who come here soley because of the size of the library too ...</p>
<p>"and fantastic cultural and intellectual resources then this is the place for you." - In other words, if you want to be intellectual there is NO BETTER PLACE THAN BERKELEY."</p>
<p>Having about 1/3-1/6 the number of "smart people" of other top schools spread out over 8000 kids and a distant facutly will somehow create the best possible intellectual experience for a college student? </p>
<p>People can decide for themselves if this is true, but don't make huge logical gaps like that.</p>
<p>She has a point that you will learn a lot here though if you are motivated, but you will have to put up with a lot of crap, and I do believe that a motivated student can learn a lot at any school without having to deal with all the crap Berkeley forces on its student body.</p>
<p>polite, you are a fool to put it simply. you complain about how mean everyone is to you and how bad you have it but thats all you do, complain. no wonder you have no friends...</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but it is YOU who make "huge logical leaps." I mean, just because I'm a Regents scholar I'm suddenly unable to provide a general description on the Cal undergraduate experience? That's like saying that because I was born in 1985 I'm unable to provide a general description of what it once meant to be a Nazi. </p>
<p>On your pathetic Regents comment: even in the Regents there is very little to no hand holding. We basically only have to see our advisors once in a while and for not that long a time. It's like going to office hours. Anybody can do it. (By the way, your description of the other opportunities the Regents provides, though true, is the logical equivalent to my description of non-Regent life---since you are not a Regents Scholar. So you're failing by you're own logic.)</p>
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" a you have a first class faculty ...."</p>
<p>If you're lucky enough to get to work with one ...
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<p>As implied in your thread on Law School, HUMANITIES students get to do this quite often and quite profitably. So quit it with the hypocritical generalizations you hick. </p>
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Having about 1/3-1/6 the number of "smart people" of other top schools spread out over 8000 kids and a distant facutly will somehow create the best possible intellectual experience for a college student?
[/quote]
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<p>It depends on the kind of intellectual experience the student is looking for you idiot. Some students are quite successful without professor oversight. This is especially true in ding ding ding THE HUMANITIES-where it tends to be better to consult books before contacting professors. Generalizations sicken me. </p>
<p>I congratulate you on finally acknowledging the possibility that I might be a woman.</p>
<p>I don't complain about how mean people are. I complain about what the real Berkeley experience is like, impersonal and a stupendous waste of money for out-of-staters. Versus all the lame losers who think Berkeley is the greatest thing since sliced bread who don't acknowledge all of Berkeley's fundamanetal weaknesses. Going to Berkeley will definitely hurt you if you aim to get to a top 5 school for professional and graduate studies because getting the grade, meeting professors, and having intelligent discussion with fellow classmen is all much more difficult than at a real school.</p>
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polite, you are a fool to put it simply. you complain about how mean everyone is to you and how bad you have it but thats all you do, complain. no wonder you have no friends...
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<p>Yep. I mean. Just think about it. If so many people were so upset at Berkeley over the education they're getting as Polite Antagonis claims they are...they wouldn't be going wild for the crappy football team or the basketball team. </p>
<p>JUST LOOK AT THIS:::</p>
<p>QUESTION 13. THE VAST MAJORITY OF CAL STUDENTS LOOOOOOOOOOVE THE CAL SOCIAL EXPERIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
<p>Better yet, look at question 11!!!! The majority of students seem to think the faculty, advising, and GSIs are good enough. Nothing like what PA describes.</p>
<p>And almost 25% don't. </p>
<p>And the dissatisfaction number varies between 15-45% with I'm guessing an average of about 20-30% for each criteria.</p>
<p>And I guess if you come to school to love sports, then you'll like Cal all right.</p>
<p>I bet a poll would also show the intensity of hate to be greater than the intensity of "like" for Cal.</p>
<p>I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find other students who think like you, PA. Then you guys can become great friends. Great friends = happiness.</p>
<p>The great thing about Berkeley is that it's so huge that even Polite Antagonis will find people like him/her and they can complain about Cal together.</p>
<p>Like I've said many times on CC, whether Berkeley undergrad is a 'good' or a 'bad' school, I would say that it's all relative. Berkeley is worse than some schools at some things and better at some things. So the decision about whether to come to Berkeley is never a strictly yes/no decision, but hinges crucially on the question of "What are your alternatives".</p>
<p>My feeling is that Berkeley, for all its problems at the undergraduate level, is still the best public school in the West Coast, and arguably the nation. Many of the problems that Berkeley has are endemic to public schools as a whole. Public schools in general tend to be large, cold, and impersonal to their undergrads, tend to have highly uneven grading distributions, and problems with providing advising and dedicated resources on a per-capita basis to their undergrads. Yet at least in the case of Berkeley, the profs are quite famous, there are extensive research opportunities and academic resources (although perhaps less so on a per-capita basis), and the student body is actually quite strong relative to most other public schools, and Berkeley does have a well-developed brand name. Many other public schools have all of the problems of Berkeley, and none of the advantages. After all, be honest, where would you rather go: Berkeley or, say, San Francisco State? </p>
<p>So my take is that there are schools that offer better undergrad educations than Berkeley does. For example, Berkeley has serious undergrad matchup problems with HYPSMC and with the elite LAC's. On the other hand, there are other schools that offer worse undergrad educations, for example, most of the other public schools in the country. </p>
<p>In the beginning of the thread, people asked about whether to choose Berkeley vs. Emory or vs. Occidental. While my advice would be to visit both schools and then figure out your fit, at a first pass, when compared to schools like that, I would probably lean towards Berkeley.</p>
<p>Listen to the voice of reason ^^^^</p>
<p>Visit, evaluate, see if it fits, then decide.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So my take is that there are schools that offer better undergrad educations than Berkeley does. For example, Berkeley has serious undergrad matchup problems with HYPSMC and with the elite LAC's. On the other hand, there are other schools that offer worse undergrad educations, for example, most of the other public schools in the country.
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<p>I have serious problems with your wording. </p>
<p>In my opinion Berkeley offers equal and oftentimes better "undergrad education" to that available at HYPSMC because most of its EDUCATION programs are if not the absolute best then among the absolute best in the world-just like HYPSMC programs. Now, if you're talking about undergrad EXPERIENCE with the education provided, I totally agree-Berkeley suffers. But do not confuse a college education with a college experience. Two different things. Berkeley is equal to HYPSMC in the former, deficient only in the latter.</p>
<p>This may then just be a case of semantics, but to me the undergrad experience and the undergrad education are intimately interconnected. </p>
<p>Look, the truth is, most of the education you get at Berkeley or any other school will not be from the faculty itself. Most of it will come from the 'experience'. After all, think about it. How much of your waking hours do you as a student spend in class, vs. how much time do you spend outside of class? I think we can all agree that most of the time is spent in the latter. So only a minority of your time is actually spent interacting with the faculty and/or with the Berkeley academic resources. Most of your time is spent interacting with other students or dealing with the life experience of just being a Berkeley student. It is therefore the quality of that time that has a greater impact on how much you really learn. </p>
<p>An ideal college experience would be one in which you not only learn a lot while in class, but you also learn a lot just by interacting with other students while just hanging out. For example, those midnight rap sessions where you are talking about deep philosophy or politics or what-have-you. That's where much of the REAL learning takes place. Student interactions are part-and-parcel of the entire educational experience. There is also a strong sociological component as well. When you see other students truly wanting to learn, then you will tend to be inspired to learn. But when you see other students goofing off, lounging around doing nothing, and generally being irresponsible and lazy, then you will tend to want to be irresponsible and lazy too. </p>
<p>Look, the fact is, much of the formal educational processes are the same at any school. For example, science classes at Berkeley will not differ markedly than science classes at a no-name school. After all Newtonian physics is Newtonian physics, organic chemistry is organic chemistry, electromagnetism is electromagnetism. It's not like Berkeley is teaching you "secret equations" that only Berkeley people know about. The textbooks will be similar, the labs will be similar, and most of the lecture content will be similar. You look at the lecture notes of a class from some no-name school and you compare it to the notes from the same class at Berkeley, and it's mostly the same. Why Berkeley can offer a better undergrad education than the no-name schools is precisely because of the experience.</p>
<p>No comparison between Cal and schools like Emory or Ocidental. Cal is a much better choice at all levels.</p>
<p>Atlanta vs SF
reputation
diversity
social life/liveliness
activities
weather
tuition
academics!</p>
<p>The small school-large school thing is overdone, the larger classes in the first two years are for intro subjects that don't suffer much from the larger format. Your later classes will be smaller and more intimate. </p>
<p>Polite Antagonis, if you couldn't even figure the heating situation in your dorm room (like buying a small heater at Ace down the street?), or perhaps the fact that cal wasn't right for you and you should have transferred from there after two years, perhaps you're not very qualified to give advice here...</p>
<p>ALL my Cal alum friends LOVED it. I can't possibly conceive a richer, more stimulating, more rewarding, more interesting college experience that the one I got at Berkeley. The people I've met, the women I've dated, the places I've gone to (one of the most beautiful areas in the world), the business network I've made, the outlook I've gained, the great times I've had. Just phenomenal!</p>
<p>Sounds like a Haas student. As Sakky has pointed out Haas students get a smaller experience.</p>
<p>And for many of the more popular majors classes DO NOT get smaller.</p>
<p>I think its safe to say that if you're top 5 professional/grad school material you're going to find a lot wrong with Cal; especially if you want to study outside of california afterwards. If you're in the bottom of Cal's distribution, you might like it more. And I would avoid going anywhere because of prestige, emory is a good school and a more intimate environment. It really depends on what you want. I would say almost any decent LSAC and top 25 private school has an edge up on CAL, but it depends on what you want to do.</p>
<p>Why does it matter if most popular major upper-div classes (lectures) don't get any smaller? A lecture is a lecture. Not much difference between 50 and 500 people when it comes to lectures. Discussions and labs always come in small sizes.</p>