Best and Brightest, but Not the Nicest

Parents Forum
81

<p>The above scenario in post #79 does not take into account the many students who avoid doing meaningless homework by taking more advanced and challenging classes.
There are students who do want to go to the most challenging colleges for them, whether these are "Ivies" or not. they do not calculate or connive their way into these colleges. They get admitted because they worked hard. And they worked hard because they were challenged.</p>

<p>Does it mean that adcoms at top schools are infallible? No. Just because everyone knows kids who clawed their way into a top school does not mean that this is the norm. But adcoms do try their best to identify kids who are internally motivated to learn. And more often than not, they succeed. It's too expensive to provide support for those who are uninterested in learning.</p>

<p>The highest achievers I've known were the students who were internally driven and competed only against themselves. And what's wrong with that? Much better than being self-satisfied.</p>

82

<p>The idea that applicants to elite schools don't try to sell themselves in their applications is, IMHO, laughable. People who expressed "surprise" at their kids' acceptances here did not idly and innocently just happen to send off apps to those elite schools, for heaven's sake. If they were "surprised," it was because they knew how stiff the competition was. That doesn't mean that they are evil, Machiavellian plotters or lacking in integrity. But they aren't a bunch of saintly innocents either.</p>

<p>My observation is that the most successful HYP applicants are kids who have a high level of drive to succeed. They are bright and talented. There are other kids who are as bright and talented, and others who are more bright and more talented, that do not possess that level of drive. (And there are still others who are wildly talented but less willing to conform who also do not do what is required to amass the same kind of "winning" record.)</p>

<p>It is what it is. I don't think that any of the participants are up for canonization. As was noted in another thread, having gotten into HYP or whatever is not proof of virtue.</p>

<p>Epiphany, you do realize that most schools do not consult with individual students about their programs with the intent of optimizing their college admissions results? The mere fact that your D--who sounds like a very laudable student--went to such a school puts her in a different place than most kids going into the process.</p>

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<p>GFG wrote: "What I take issue with is the concept that somehow adcoms can select the ideal Ivy student--one who did nothing with Ivy admissions in mind, but rather elite admission is just a natural, unplanned outgrowth of all their self-motivated pursuits."</p>

<p>Then you can take issue with my son and others like him. He didn't decide to apply to the ivies until late this fall. Nothing he had done was done with thoughts of college admission. Throughout most of his highschool career, he believed he would be attending the state college that most of the kids from his highschool attend - without significant effort. </p>

<p>All of his EC's were pursued because he enjoyed them - and he started most well before he began high school, most before middle school. His community service activities were begun when he was 5 years old - because he saw conditions that saddened him and he wanted to help "those people". BTW, I believe he will be still pursuing these activities as an "elderly retired person". Did he complete boring homework - yes, most (not all) of the time - but not with an eye to college applications but with an eye to "getting in" the next class he wanted to take - because it was interesting or because his friends would be taking it or because it didn't involve boring homework. His SAT scores were achieved on the first taking - with no prep. Oh and I might add, he's a genuinely nice kid.</p>

<p>BTW, I don't believe he is "unique" in these respects.</p>

<p>How sad, that your environment has so colored your view of the world. Though I often have problems with my "area of the world" I certainly wouldn't trade it for yours - wherever that might be.</p>

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<p>"Epiphany, you do realize that most schools do not consult with individual students about their programs with the intent of optimizing their college admissions results? The mere fact that your D--who sounds like a very laudable student--went to such a school puts her in a different place than most kids going into the process."</p>

<p>And the "mere fact" that other students, at that school & in other schools, would not have made the decisions she did ALSO puts her in a different place, in the eyes of admissions committees.</p>

<p>There are a lot of red herrings being introduced, have been introduced. I've said nothing about "canonization." Marite painted the portrait in the balanced way in which I also see it: Ivy admits are a mixture of the cunning and the selfless, and lots of students in between. Drive and some degree of goodness are not mutually exclusive.</p>

<p>The idea that drive cannot coexist with a positive impulse toward one's fellow man is what I find "laughable," Consolation. Not a single person here said that getting into HYP was "proof of virtue," so you can stop with the straw man arguments now.</p>

<p>As to the element of surprise, my D is still saying, 3 years later, "I still wonder why ____U liked me so much." (U whose offer she turned down for a similar one.) She and I were quite surprised by admissions results, probably mostly for me because I had heard exaggerations even before coming to CC, about how "no one" gets into these places, and how you have to be internationally famous (and conniving), etc. We were hoping for maybe one reach acceptance; were surprised that they all materialized, and had plenty of matches & safeties on her list initially, because of that doubt.</p>

<p>Finally, returning to your last paragraph, there were cc admits to P two rounds ago that spoke of attending, pardon mon francais, "crappy public schools."</p>

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<p>Our D's experience mirrors reflectivemoms'. </p>

<p>In my observation, there are two types of students who make it to the Ivy League: The type who plans his/her life decisions around what s/he perceives the Ivies to be looking for in an admittee; and the type whose life naturally takes that path. Both are equally deserving, imo. (But the second type might be happier - but that is just speculation on my part).</p>

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<p>I don't believe that observation. I don't think the top student picks of the elite colleges are not nice people. I know too many of them, along with every other sub group, including kids not going to college, and I would not pick that group as aberrant in nature. There are not nice kids in all groups, and super nice kids in all groups. I think there is an arrogance among many kids where they will diss kids in other groups, but you know, they diss themselves as well, as the writer of that featured article did. She AND her sister are, after all, part of that best and brightest that she feels are not the nicest.</p>

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<p>"The idea that drive cannot coexist with a positive impulse toward one's fellow man is what I find "laughable," Consolation. "</p>

<p>I never said or implied that. In fact, I know it to be untrue. Not only that, but I deliberately wrote that the kids "have drive" rather than saying that they "were driven" in order to avoid any negative connotation. </p>

<p>"Not a single person here said that getting into HYP was "proof of virtue," so you can stop with the straw man arguments now."</p>

<p>I thought I was fairly clear that I was referring to another thread. In that thread (originally titled something like "Another Stepford candidate rejected from Harvard") people were lambasting a 2400 SAT kid with a perhaps excessively involved father who got into a bunch of really excellent schools but did not get into Harvard, saying that he must have been a drone and that the ad com perceived it and so forth. Someone posted a very thoughtful comment about the dangers of assuming that admissions decisions are proof of virtue or lack thereof. Using virtue in the broader sense.</p>

<p>I applaud your D for making the choice she did. One would indeed hope that admissions committees perceived it and appreciated it.</p>

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<p>I want to add that HPYet al do very much read the GC and teachers' recs. If there is a perception that the kid is not nice, that can squelch the deal.</p>

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<p>Most kids I know (including my own) are driven partly by their inborn intelligence (which usually goes hand in hand with the interest in learning), partly by grown-ups ;) (represented by the parents and the teachers) who expect them to do their best. By the time of high school, they kinda develop a habit of doing exactly that - their best ... in everything they pursue - including college admissions. It doesn't mean that everything they do is done for "selling" college applications. The level of achievments such kids demonstrate is hardly achievable without genuine interest in what they are doing. But when it comes to applying to colleges it would be really silly NOT to present their achievements and good deeds in an appropriate way as long as the applications ask about them, wouldn't it? </p>

<p>I don't see what all of the above has to do with "niceness". You can be nice and do nice things without thinking about any rewards, but you know the rules of the admission "game" - let adcoms know you from your best side. Ignoring them would be the sign of immaturity, not of the sainthood.</p>

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<p>Having drive or being goal-driven implies single-mindedness. What is being suggested is that for SOME Ivy admits, their drivenness may at times interfere with their niceness. This is not because they are, at the core, less kind than the rest of the population. I think we all agree that no one group has the monopoly on goodness. The phenomenon, if it exists, may be a side-effect of pursuing certain goals with great determination. There are only so many hours in the day and so much gas in the tank. A driven person may be so focussed on some broader and bigger purpose that he neglects the immediate. This is not a lack of niceness, but might be perceived that way by folks around him who think like the article's author. Some kids can do it all. Some can't and don't bother trying. The not-nice ones may very well be the ones who can't do it all but think they have to in order to get into HYP and therefore cut corners in a way that ends up being inconsiderate to others around them.</p>

<p>PS--Don't assume that honors and AP classes eliminate the need to do meaningless assignments just because that was not the case at your child's superior school. My S took 13 AP's plus many honors classes and had many a silly project to do. One reason for that is that the school requires the teachers to assess their students via activities which cater to different learning styles. Unfortunately, teachers don't always know how to do this well and assign silly arts and crafts for the benefit of visual and artistic learners. D just had to decorate a paper doll using fabric, glitter, etc. for honors English class.</p>

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<p>I am not sure that most high-achievnig high schoolers I know are so much "goal-driven" and "single-minded". ;) Mine certainly isn't - she wasn't even intersted in getting into Ivies in the first place ;) (she had other than Ivy "dream school" but wasn't sure even about that ;)). Most smart teens I know do whatever they do because they are interested in it and good at it (academics, arts, sports, volounteering etc.). Then, when it comes to applying to colleges they all choose some realistic and unrealistic goals - reaches, matches and safeties, as they had been taught by GCs and CC. ;) The kids who apply to (and even get into) "super-reaches" - including Ivy League schools - are not neccessarily had getting into such schools as a long-term goal; many perceived it more like a "crapshot" (as people here on cc often describe the proccess ;)).</p>

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<p>
[quoteI think we all agree that no one group has the monopoly on goodness.
[/quote]
</p>

<p>Great, we can now close this discussion. What was its point now again?</p>

93

<p>Responding to a variety of questions & comments:</p>

<p>I think highly competitive schools & environments sometimes create their own intense atmospheres that cannot be generalized to the peer population as a whole, or to the parent population as a whole, for that matter.</p>

<p>As to the purpose of re-opening this discussion, I'm not sure what the original point was, other than to generate some debate, but possibly a secondary benefit for some is to rationalize, or to have in place a defense mechanism in the event of rejection from HYP.</p>

<p>With all the name-calling and finger-pointing of those selected by 'elites,' & the discussion of the supposed advantages/reasons/luck which planted them there, there appears to be some deep resentment.</p>

<p>To me, what is silly is that there is no need to rationalize. If someone hasn't achieved an Ivy acceptance or does not wish an Ivy enrollment, there's a lot more to console oneself with than attempts at character assassination. How about things like cost (including possible cost of travel), weather, possible permanent transplantation if friends, mates, careers end up in those locales? (ie., distance from family of birth) -- as is possible with any college choice. How about the fact that not every professor is "perfect" or "ideal"? (D has had at least one disappointing prof so far, affecting her interest in & understanding of the subject matter, which is a shame.) How about individual limitations on academic majors, double majors, graduate school options? How about grading systems that may appear arbitrary? How about a "heavy" core? (Or distribution requirements?) Every U has its unique advantages & disadvantages. A student may find more of what he or she wants <em>Not</em> at an Elite, depending.</p>

<p>With regard to the comment about a high school "consulting" with a student about college admissions and their h.s. program, it's rather the reverse. It's the student that consults with the administration, not vice-versa. They were pressuring the student to take a 7th advanced science year and a 6th advanced math year, even though she was a humanities student, & had proved that she could handle advanced subjects not in her field. </p>

<p>I agree that not all AP/Honors courses are intellectually stimulating. At our school, the students are fortunate in that they are. If they aren't, there will be less opportunity for the kind of in-depth recommendation that a selective school values. So again, generalizations are not so helpful, as they do not shed light on the intellectual depth of any particular student at any 'elite.' (For example, I don't think the author of the article showed intellectual depth in that piece, which may or may not be reflective of her ability.)</p>

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<p>
[quote]

Perhaps the author has a personality flaw of her own that brings out the worst in others - making them act "not nice" to her. When I reflect upon the Ivy League-bound students I know well enough to have an opinion about, only one of the 8 stands out as "not nice." The other 7 seem to be either outstanding or "normal" kids, although 1 of them is so painfully shy that I have never heard him speak, even though I have known him and his family for 5+ years.

[/quote]

Not necessary. A usually nice kid could be 'not so nice' when against their immediate 'competetors' in a high competetive environment. Their parents may not see. ... I had the similar observateion as jsnq in post #11</p>