<p>Hi bovertine - I gave the best information that I could, and you’re welcome to disagree or ignore it. These terms used to seem nebulous to me as well, but after many decades of varied experience in a number of these areas, they have hardened in meaning. Now I see nuanced differences, and I understand how to interpret the words depending on who is speaking.</p>
<p>By the way, on the dual meanings of “systems engineering” and “systems architect”: I recognize that, and it’s one example of the nuance of which I was speaking. I chose the meaning associated with the more highly compensated positions, as they definitely attract attention when posted. A casual glance at the position offered will tell me which meaning applies. Even the company name and location alone will make it obvious. Let me guarantee you that the compensation will be a clue that carries all the subtlety of an anvil falling from the sky. Again, this all becomes obvious if you’ve spent time in these areas.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, your background in EE and IS are in completely different fields from the one under discussion, although perhaps you have migrated out of those during your career.</p>
<p>In any case, I stand by the information that I shared with this forum, and I hope it will be of use to anyone who is honestly curious about these careers.</p>
<p>^^^
And I disagree. Despite your attempts to marginalize my position.</p>
<p>I won’t go into all my disagreements, I believe the dot-com boom spawned all sorts of ridiculous specificity and confusion about job titles. When we have terms such as “System Evangelist” it is beyond absurd. </p>
<p>However I will point out that I strongly disagree with your characterization of Systems Engineers as little more than technical salespeople. Perhaps certain areas of the software biz have coopted that term for that purpose, but I have been aware of engineers performing the task of System Engineering since before there was a Microsoft. In the aerospace business, a systems engineer could be an electrical, mechanical or computer engineer. Their job was to integrate those functions in a project. The job could involve control or communication theory, or software development. It had nothing to do with sales.</p>
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<p>This is precisely my point. Terminology that requires interpretation depending on who is speaking is meaningless in my book. Either something means something or it doesn’t.</p>
<p>If your point is that somebody can give a job the title “Software Architect”, and then you can tell what the job entails by reading the job duties and looking at the compensation, of course I’m not going to argue with that.</p>
That’s not my characterization at all. These folks are extremely talented engineers, very valuable, and technical sales/customer-facing engineering requires a rich skill set. Honestly, I don’t know how you could have misinterpreted my post in that manner - especially since I agree with your “Systems Engineering since long before Microsoft …” paragraph. In fact, I could have written it - which leaves me mystified as to your objection.</p>
<p>Also, in no way am I “marginalizing your position.” I don’t know your position, but I have the utmost respect for EEs; that’s a darn tough field.</p>
<p>By the way, I thought ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad’s comments were quite accurate.</p>
<p>^^^^
I didn’t mean my position as in my current job position. I meant my position wrt commenting on the meaning of terminology in this thread.</p>
<p>I fully admit that this is not my field of expertise, and it appears this is your field of expertise. However, this is also the field of expertise for Mrs. MiamiDAP, and when someone has over thirty years experience in a field and has never even heard of a job title, I suspect that job title is not as universally known as you claim.</p>
<p>It was my mistake to use the phrase “little more than sales.” What I meant to say was that I have known many people with the title Systems Engineer in my career, and I don’t think any one of them really had much to do with sales. </p>
<p>But we’re not going to get anywhere with this discussion. I still suspect people will have to read the job descriptions to really know what the duties are for any of these positions. Just like I do when I read an ad for an Electrical Engineer.</p>
<p>We may agree more than it appears; it’s a complex topic. Rather than calling these universal terms, I’d say that they have more detailed meaning within a field or community - just as you would make subtle distinctions within EE or engineering.</p>
<p>Mrs. MiamiDAP mentioned that she has worked for three decades in IT. To me (also with three decades experience), IT is a completely different field from software development. I wouldn’t have any sense for positions within IT.</p>
<p>Anyway, perhaps some potential Computer Science student will find the info that I gave useful for thinking about career development. At least it reflects my understanding of one path to that tempting $175k Software Architect position at the #1 listing! But there’s something for everyone; they’ll also have opportunities to vector off into sales, consulting, project management, product management, startups, etc. </p>
<p>It’s a pretty attractive field, and demand is great even now - there are tons of well-paying jobs available for fresh, hard-working students. One caveat: the outsourcing threat is real, so I emphasize the hard work part. If you study this field, find a very solid school/curriculum and commit to it.</p>
<p>“IT is a completely different field from software development” - ???</p>
<p>-I have been in IT developing software (working with customers, internal users, analysing, designing, writing programs for 9 completely different emploers in very different industries, doing both modifications to existing packages and developing brand new systems). You are saying that I have existed in 2 different fields at the same time? I am not sure what you mean, but I have a sense that all this various terminology is just different language used at different regions of the country for the same thing. By the way, since I am coming from electrical engineering, my first occupation that I did not like and decided to change, I can tell you that IT has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of engineering whatsoever, another example of a word that just got attached / used for unknown reason.</p>
True, I can accept that. It’s entirely possible that a reasonable confusion on my part might not exist for someone intimately involved in the software arena.</p>
<p>Anyway, I re-read my own posts and it looks like I seem a biit grumpy for some reason. I’ve got a business trip tomorrow, which I hate, and it seems to have put me in a foul mood. So I apologize for that.</p>
<p>It is really the ignorance of the reporter who wrote the article. There are two many different levels of work fall into this big “software” industry. To generalize a job title like “software architect” is irresponsible and is open to a senseless debate like in this thread. Almost every software related work could be classified as “software architect” including “database administrator”, IMO.</p>
<p>My daughter hopes to become a PA. She has an aunt and uncle who are PA’s and both of them are happier about what they do than anyone else I have ever seen. They really get excited about their jobs. If you ask them about their day, they struggle to stop talking about what they did. Granted, they both work long hours, but are not exhausted at the end of the long day because they love what they do so much! </p>
<p>Both are surgical PA’s, one in hearts and lungs and the other in bone. As you can tell, I am not in the medical profession.</p>
<p>I think it would be hard to explain much about the very large field of work covered by those with various computer science/IT degrees to a high school student. CS/IT is a big, big field and one that is changing. Job terms have rough and fluid definitions. I used the term ‘software engineer’ for what I did which included programming, software control, testing and some web design all in the scientific community. What I did was and is vastly different than what friends who graduated at the same time with the same degree from the same school have done.
CS/IT is a growing field but I would never recommend jumping into it for just that reason.
On the other hand, these lists can at least nudge kids to consider ideas. There are whole areas I never thought about because nobody I knew was thinking about them.
I know a couple of CPAs too - and what they do is not at all boring to them - and they are both very, very smart.</p>
<p>Despite the recent slump, the world of investment and commercial real estate brokerage/finance remains a fun way to earn a very good living without having to be stuck in an office night and day. You often work pretty much at your own pace and very few seem to put in long hours. Also highly unlikey to be sent offshore or replaced by computers, etc. All that was tried and failed. It helps to be a good people person but even that is not required for some areas.</p>
<p>This whole discussion makes me think of my own (late) father, who was born in the early 1920’s. Although he started life in a house without electricity, he went on to earn his BS and MS in Electrical Engineering (in the slide-rule era). He worked as an EE for years, and then became a journalist. His final job was as editor for a magazine about data communications, in the pre-dawn of the personal computer/internet age. (I have a very fond memory of my dad explaining this newfangled contraption called a “modem” to the extended family at Thanksgiving dinner.)</p>
<p>At the age of 17 or 18, he couldn’t possibly have forseen the path his profession would eventually take. I just know that he loved his work, because it was interesting to him. The world (and especially technology) is changing faster now than ever, so my advice to my own children is study what they love…and be ready to adapt to change. For all we know, today’s Civil Engineering students will someday build the infrastructure on Mars!</p>