<p>No love for Cal Tech, then?</p>
<p>University of Washington</p>
<p>
[quote]
No, you don't know if the young Lis are even going to match the Li gift to Berkeley and donate $50-150 million (equivalent to a NPV of $40 million for a gift years/decades down the road) to Stanford in the future.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The correct term is actually PV (present value) rather than NPV (NET present value)... NPV, of course, being the DIFFERENCE between the PV of cash inflows minus the PV of cash outflows (the theory generally stating that a positive NET PV - i.e. > ZERO should be a go) - and since we are discussing a single cash amount (rather than an investment scenario), PV is the term you want...</p>
<p>Didn't they teach you guys that simple difference at Haas? ;)</p>
<p>Asians in the position to hire know where the schools stand. No Asian ibanker thinks Haas is better than Stanford. Maybe the average man on the street knows Cal better, but trust me, Asian businesspeople know the rankings.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Maybe the average man on the street knows Cal better
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The average person on the street in Asia might know Harvard - but University of California, Berkeley? Highly doubt it - they're much more likely to have heard of UCLA... </p>
<p>And Haas? I'd say just about as likely as the average American is likely to have heard of Jia Tong.</p>
<p>But all of that is (as you mentioned) irrelevant.</p>
<p>The decision makers, movers and shakers (i.e. the ones who run Asia, Inc.) KNOW that Stanford is > Cal.</p>
<p>Sorry, IvyGrad -
I love Ivys as much as you and don't like Cal as much as you (even though I attend)....but lets only denegrate this institution to the level it deserves to be. People around the world know UCB. People in Asia ARE more likely to know UCB than UCLA - your assertion to the contrary is just wrong, and we both know it. </p>
<p>That said, we both agree the movers and shakers in Asia know Stanford > Cal, as do the movers and shakers around the world.</p>
<p>But in the end, no one cares Ronald Reagan went to Eureka College or Ted Kaczinski went to Harvard - its what you do with your degree that matters.</p>
<p>perhaps none of you have been to asia. Harvard and Berkley are the most well known. Refute this all you want, but dont say one word until you actually have the experience. Besides the fact that my entire family is from China and Malaysia and my girlfriends family is from taiwan, i have friends families from vietnam, thailand etc. I have talked to countless business men that fequently travel between hong kong and los angeles. </p>
<p>General consensus, USC is more well known than stanford. Not to mention the only two colleges every single person recognized was harvard and berkley. Those period, were the only two EVERY person recognized.</p>
<p>Well. There you have it folks.</p>
<p>So... virtually everybody in Pennsylvania knows Penn State while only some know about UPENN (not to mention plenty confuse the latter with the former). But PSU definitely ain't no UPENN, just like USC definitely isn't CAL, Stanford, or even UCLA.</p>
<p>Bottom line: name recognition doesn't equal quality recognition.</p>
<p>
[quote]
perhaps none of you have been to asia. Harvard and Berkley are the most well known. Refute this all you want, but dont say one word until you actually have the experience. Besides the fact that my entire family is from China and Malaysia and my girlfriends family is from taiwan, i have friends families from vietnam, thailand etc. I have talked to countless business men that fequently travel between hong kong and los angeles.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have the experience. I have also been to Asia and have significant ties to Asia. And I have never known anybody who knew Berkeley who also didn't know Stanford and MIT, and who didn't consider Stanford and MIT to be more desirable.</p>
<p>
[quote]
perhaps none of you have been to asia.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Perhaps. But perhaps not. Even though I have been to Asia, have lived and worked in Asia, have considerable ties to Asia... STILL, it really irks me when people start off by saying - "you know, all you people speculating about Asia, LET ME set the record straight and give you all a cultural lesson..."</p>
<p>It's complete crap. Every person has his/her own experience and opinion. Period. Some have DIRECT experience (which I DO have), others don't. </p>
<p>Look at how hard it is to get people in the US to agree on a Top 10 list of US schools - and we are talking about a forum of people who presumably have a TON of direct "experience" in the US - about US schools.</p>
<p>So folks please, get off of your collective high horses, and stop pretending as if you are some authority on a region that accounts for fully 1/3 of the world's land mass and over 60% of the global population (not to mention all of the diversity and differences that come in such an expansive region). If you have an experience / view / opinion, please do share them - but save the "well I am Asian, and my family is from Asia, and my dog is from Asia..." - because Asia is far, far too diverse to boil it down to "one thing"... what's popular in "North East" Asia may not be in "South East" Asia... etc. etc.</p>
<p>You have a view? Please share. But save us the "I am Mr. Asia speeches."</p>
<p>Put another way, everyone on this board presumably has his / her own view of what the top US schools are. But each list is going to differ - esp. once you get past HYPSM (in fact, can be RADICALLY different)....In other words, picture if you will, an identical version of CC over in Asia, and one of us logged onto to the board over there - are we automatically "experts" on the US - right off of the bat? Perhaps, in some regards (for example, vs. someone who has no clue about the US, absolutely)... </p>
<p>But what if we wrote: "you know, I'm American, and I spent my entire life in the US, and I can tell you that the Jia Tong survey is the most widely respected academic survey ever..."</p>
<p>What kind of credibility (or lack thereof) would such a comment receive? Hopefully it would receive the weight of one person's comment. Period.</p>
<p>You see, over time, that person's credibility will either build or deteriorate as he / she participates.</p>
<p>Furthermore, a comment was made earlier:</p>
<p>
[quote]
virtually everybody in Pennsylvania knows Penn State while only some know about UPENN (not to mention plenty confuse the latter with the former)....Bottom line: name recognition doesn't equal quality recognition.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Excellent points - i.e. let's not confuse "name recognition" with quality. Couldn't have said it better myself. Perhaps people in certain regions in Asia are used to seeing a plethora of the "Gold and Blue" CAL t-shirts everywhere (I certainly see more of those in Cali than I do Stanford's), and perhaps its "street" recognition may be higher than Stanford's... But - and here is the point - let's not confuse that with "quality". I think we would all agree that what we were discussing / debating was "quality" / "prestige" rather than sheer recognition - and, further, we were discussing the prestige of Haas vs. Stanford GSB. So in that rather smaller relative sampling of people from Asia that actually KNOW what Haas and GSB is, I'm confident when I say that GSB is > Haas.</p>
<p>So, back to the original point. Yeah, I've been to Asia. Yeah, I have ties to Asia. Yeah, I've met and worked with CEO's from Asia.</p>
<p>And YEAH, my experience says simply: STANFORD > CAL.</p>
<p>But, hey what do I know? I'm no "expert"...</p>
<p>possibly that is why i said "general consensus"</p>
<p>And stop contradicting yourself, perhaps you can take a glance at your last statement on page 7, it embodies everything that you just mentioned was wrong. </p>
<p>so go on your way please MR authority.</p>
<p>
[quote]
And stop contradicting yourself, perhaps you can take a glance at your last statement on page 7, it embodies everything that you just mentioned was wrong.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How so? Here is my last statement in its entirety from page 7:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The average person on the street in Asia might know Harvard - but University of California, Berkeley? Highly doubt it - they're much more likely to have heard of UCLA...</p>
<p>And Haas? I'd say just about as likely as the average American is likely to have heard of Jia Tong.</p>
<p>But all of that is (as you mentioned) irrelevant.</p>
<p>The decision makers, movers and shakers (i.e. the ones who run Asia, Inc.) KNOW that Stanford is > Cal.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>So, please let me know how I have contradicted what I have been saying all along...</p>
<p>how about SAN DIEGO STATE MBA school ?</p>
<p>Good for San Diego but that's probably about it.</p>
<p>
[quote]
sakky:
"I have the experience. I have also been to Asia and have significant ties to Asia."
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am going to call you on that sakky. Please state your experience level in Asia. I would guess that you are in your early 20s and your Asian experience and outlook are fairly limited.</p>
<p>IvyGrad: you make some good points, when you say that the posters' particular perspective on Asia varies according to personal parameters. I've stated in the past that yours was the view of an Ivy Grad I-banker who has worked for some period (weeks, months?) in an Asian branch of an American I-Bank. That viewpoint is closely tied to the basic MBA rankings, where Haas is only top 10. Fine...</p>
<p>My perspective is that of an older alum who has worked on various infrastructure, trade and business projects in SE Asia and China, as well as with some Chinese companies on large projects outside of Asia. In my business transactions, I have found Berkeley to be extremely well represented at the highest governmental and business levels. </p>
<p>The fact is, what you don't know is that the extent of the Berkeley presence in Asia is vastly greater than the influence of Haas. Over the last few decades, Berkeley has enjoyed a tremendous global reputation, perhaps second only to Harvard, if that. Berkeley is unusually well-represented among the cabinets across Asia. A lot of those officials and leaders had gotten their bachelors and PhDs in subjects such as Economics, Engineering or Political Science. If you want a concrete example, try looking up "Berkeley mafia" in Indonesia. This will give you an insight, well more true and meaningful than CC chatter, as to why Berkeley is superior to Stanford and just about any other American university in the view of those who matter in Indonesia. Things aren't much different in Malaysia, Cambodia, Singapore or the mainland.</p>
<p>As well, my personal connections/friendships from Berkeley have put me in contact with several business leaders (including two Asian billionaires), which have been my partners on several projects.</p>
<p>There is a reason why Berkeley is the only university in the United States with a large free-standing building for Asian Studies, and that department, which is very well-integrated with the business school, is the top department of its kind in America.</p>
<p>
[quote]
IvyGrad: you make some good points, when you say that the posters' particular perspective on Asia varies according to personal parameters. I've stated in the past that yours was the view of an Ivy Grad I-banker who has worked for some period (weeks, months?) in an Asian branch of an American I-Bank. That viewpoint is closely tied to the basic MBA rankings, where Haas is only top 10. Fine...
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Hmmm, where to begin?</p>
<p>Well, first of all, I'd say that my understanding of Asia extends well beyond my direct work experience living and working there. But, even if it didn't, one cannot discount the fact that my experience is more than merely superficial.</p>
<p>I have had the opportunity to work with government officials from a number of Asian countries, corporate executives (board members, CEOs, CFOs), entrepreneurs, etc... Now one can certainly try to paint this experience as being "highly specialized", which it certainly is - it stands squarely in the crosshairs of "business"... more on this point a bit later.</p>
<p>
[quote]
My perspective is that of an older alum who has worked on various infrastructure, trade and business projects in SE Asia and China, as well as with some Chinese companies on large projects outside of Asia. In my business transactions, I have found Berkeley to be extremely well represented at the highest governmental and business levels.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>First, I don't think anyone here is questioning Cal's outstanding reputation in Asia. Let's take a step back and try and get back to the original argument here. Remember it's not Cal's reputation (in general) that's on trial here - we were debating whether a Haas MBA was as good as or > than a Stanford MBA / MIT MBA.</p>
<p>Next, your own experience - while I can offer respect that you do seem to have significant experience in China and SE Asia - it is also, at the same time, also limited - limited to a certain region (i.e. not all-encompassing - i.e. cannot speak on behalf of ALL OF ASIA). You don't offer any insight into East Asia's two other big powers: Japan and Korea. And I do have direct experience in those regions.</p>
<p>Remember, there are undeniable regional differences even within the US - i.e. the West will have preferences for the UC schools, the South for Duke / UVa, "East Coast Ivy bias", etc, etc - and that's within a single nation!</p>
<p>Let's have a little bit of perspective here. ONE view of Asian preferences, ONE perspective of Asia - that's all that ONE person can offer. I believe that my own experiences are broad and deep enough to make certain distinctions, deductions, etc. - and further, I'm confident in my own ability to go toe-to-toe with anyone on this board with regards to Asian culture, history, etc., - but I know, at the end of the day, my opinion, my view is just one person's view, take it or leave it.</p>
<p>Lastly, with all due respect to CalX, but have you ever considered the fact that your OWN experiences are necessarily going to expose you to a very "Berkeley"-driven / "Berekely"-biased / pro-Berekely environment? I mean, it's not a bad thing - I think it's great that you have utilized and leveraged your Cal connections / network - every good business person does this. But to what extent does such a positive personal experience taint you to be highly subjective when it comes to your alma mater (either to the extent that you are hyper pro-Cal or anti-Ivy/Stanford/MIT?) </p>
<p>For instance, as a Wharton grad, I'm proud of the fact that Wharton has an outstanding and active alumni network in Asia - but I'm not going to tell you that it is far SUPERIOR to Harvard's or that my degree trumps having an MBA from Stanford - I believe that each of these three schools have their own particular strengths and that the prestige / "wow" factor will vary from situation to situation, from setting to setting, from country to country (though I will add Harvard's "wow" factor is like Visa - "its accepted everywhere - and is priceless")</p>
<p>
[quote]
As well, my personal connections/friendships from Berkeley have put me in contact with several business leaders (including two Asian billionaires), which have been my partners on several projects.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And my own connections have also put me in contact with the very upper crust / elite (both financially and socially) of Asia Inc. I've met, dined with, befriended the very families that RUN major Asian conglomerates. And the point: not a single one of those families would consider a Stanford MBA inferior to Haas (quite the contrary).</p>
<p>
[quote]
There is a reason why Berkeley is the only university in the United States with a large free-standing building for Asian Studies, and that department, which is very well-integrated with the business school, is the top department of its kind in America.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Again, you are arguing a tangential point at best here... i.e. "you want to get a degree in Asian Studies?" Cal is a great place to be... (though even here I'd argue in favor of Harvard). </p>
<p>But let's "re-center" the discussion for a minute - this is a dedicated thread for discussing MBA programs - not liberal arts, not Asian studies - business schools. Period. Now even within the context of an MBA discussion for those intending to pursue a career in Asia, I'd offer the following advice: "Go to the best possible MBA program that you can attend. Period."</p>
<p>Not only will that degree serve you well in Asia, it should serve you well ANYWHERE. In sum, I continue to believe that the following b-schools are the Top 5:</p>
<p>HBS
Stanford GSB
Wharton
MIT Sloan
Columbia</p>
<p>I just don't believe that Haas has a place in that elite top 5 (even if you are incorporating the Asian angle).</p>
<p>"Not only will that degree serve you well in Asia, it should serve you well ANYWHERE. In sum, I continue to believe that the following b-schools are the Top 5:</p>
<p>HBS
Stanford GSB
Wharton
MIT Sloan
Columbia"</p>
<p>Interesting... if I remember correctly, you're a Columbia grad. Any reason why Columbia (or even MIT) leapfrogs Chicago or Kellogg?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Interesting... if I remember correctly, you're a Columbia grad. Any reason why Columbia (or even MIT) leapfrogs Chicago or Kellogg?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm a Wharton MBA grad (Princeton under) - never attended Columbia.</p>
<p>As to why Columbia over Chicago / Kellogg - remember this "Top 5" list is in keeping with the ongoing discussion re: careers in Asia. Bearing this in mind, Columbia's MBA program (IMO) holds a slight edge over Chicago / Kellogg (though it's a slight one) due to a slight reputational edge (e.g. active Asian alumni community). I should note that I believe that Kellogg's MBA program is better one OVERALL - i.e. if one were to take the Asian angle out of the equation and one were to compare them side by side. That said, if one were to look at the Asian angle as a no. 1 priority, then yeah, I'd give that fifth spot to Columbia.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I am going to call you on that sakky. Please state your experience level in Asia. I would guess that you are in your early 20s and your Asian experience and outlook are fairly limited.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Heh heh, you REALLY don't want to call me on that one. Trust me. I don't like to talk about my biography publicly as a matter of policy, but trust me, you should stay away from this one. </p>
<p>
[quote]
My perspective is that of an older alum who has worked on various infrastructure, trade and business projects in SE Asia and China, as well as with some Chinese companies on large projects outside of Asia. In my business transactions, I have found Berkeley to be extremely well represented at the highest governmental and business levels. </p>
<p>The fact is, what you don't know is that the extent of the Berkeley presence in Asia is vastly greater than the influence of Haas. Over the last few decades, Berkeley has enjoyed a tremendous global reputation, perhaps second only to Harvard, if that. Berkeley is unusually well-represented among the cabinets across Asia. A lot of those officials and leaders had gotten their bachelors and PhDs in subjects such as Economics, Engineering or Political Science. If you want a concrete example, try looking up "Berkeley mafia" in Indonesia. This will give you an insight, well more true and meaningful than CC chatter, as to why Berkeley is superior to Stanford and just about any other American university in the view of those who matter in Indonesia. Things aren't much different in Malaysia, Cambodia, Singapore or the mainland.</p>
<p>As well, my personal connections/friendships from Berkeley have put me in contact with several business leaders (including two Asian billionaires), which have been my partners on several projects.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't think anybody is arguing that Berkeley/Haas doesn't have strong ties to Asia. We all agree this is true. The issue is that you keep insisting that it is either 'the best', or that it is better than School X, and that is what I (and I think also IvyGrad) object to. If you had just said that Haas/Berkeley has strong ties to Asia, then I would have had no beef. </p>
<p>
[quote]
There is a reason why Berkeley is the only university in the United States with a large free-standing building for Asian Studies, and that department, which is very well-integrated with the business school, is the top department of its kind in America.</p>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Why do you keep saying that Berkeley has the top Asian Studies department? I see no reason to believe that Haas has a better Asian Studies department than Harvard does. </p>
<p>Look, we should leave it be that Haas is a top 10 business school (which nobody disputes) that is also a strong gateway to Asia. I can live with that.</p>