<p>No one attacked Michigan and no one is saying Michigan is a bad school but you go out of your way and knock down other schools. Michigan is a good school but it is not the best engineering school and for some reason you are on an agenda to make it the best engineering school in the eyes of these impressionable kids. You seem to do this across the board for every program of study.</p>
<p>Is Alexandre an adcom for Michigan?</p>
<p>My guess is that he suffers from feelings of inadequacy for some reason :laugh:</p>
<p>UM IS VERY good across the board. Better than nearly all others.</p>
<p>Shizz, I really don't see what you are talking about. When it comes to Engineering, I am always saying that Michigan is somehwere between #5 and #8. I have never claimed that Michigan is a top 4 program...let alone #1. If you can show me a post writen by me that claims Michigan is a top 3 or 4 program in Engineering, let me know. </p>
<p>Secondly, I do not knock down other schools. I am vocal and that offends people sometimes, but I am just and I have justification for my positions. I am certainly a fan of Michigan, and when I write about Michigan, my affection for the school is evident. </p>
<p>As for your psycho-analysis, let us leave that to the Freuds of the World shall we?!</p>
<p>Take the top 10 students, from the top 20 engineering programs and you probably can find a dime's worth of difference between them. They will all blow you away.</p>
<p>When you get right down to it, the quality of the student is more critical than the quality of the school. </p>
<p>This would probably be less true in Grad programs.</p>
<p>Thank you for the replies, College_help, Monydad, Alexandre, and Rogracer.<br>
Yes, I'm thinking about going to a liberal arts college for engineering for the combination of liberal arts/engineering; feeding both sides of the brain at the same time is very appealing. My worry is that if I wind up going to an engineering school, I would be taking mostly hardcore science/math classes, and I wouldn't get a chance to branch out and get the breadth/depth of a liberal arts education. It also seems like it would be (relatively) easier to double major in the humanities/engineering at a liberal arts college. And lastly (and by far, least-ly), engineers are more immediately employable than English lit majors, so it would be easier to support myself right after college while bumming around and trying to figure out what to do with the rest of my life.<br>
Those are the pros as I see them; thank you for pointing out the cons.<br>
If you all would like to share some insights on yr career paths as engineers, that would be very welcome, too!</p>
<p>Can anyone please give more insight on the small engineering colleges: Rose-Hulman, Cooper Union, Harvey Mudd, and F.W. Olin. All are very highly rated and very selective (as per Barron's, Peterson's, Kaplan, etc.). However, most of the information available does not show where these schools fall within the others you have been discussing. Would any of them be in the top 10? They do have very high USNWR Peer ratings. Olin is not in many books since it is very new and hasn't had any graduates yet, but it appears to have a great innovative program. Please provide comments on Olin, Princeton Review raves about them.</p>
<p>On a slightly different topic. Can anyone tell me which of the top engineering programs has limited requirements for Humanities classes. I know Brown has a program where you to choose your own curriculum and can do this. I was told that U. VA Honors program also allows you to skip English, History, Political Sceince, etc. However these two programs are not among to top engineering schools being discussed and UVA's program is not for engineers (I was talking to a Math major).</p>
<p>hey-la: A small liberal arts college might have an advantage for studying certain subjects in humanities or social sciences but, for engineering, I think infrastructure is important. The smaller LACs may have engineering but they lack an engineering infrastructure. I am referring to two types of infrastructure. Facilities infrastructure includes buildings, labs, computers, equipment, materials, and access to these things. Networking infrastructure includes an active alumni network, numerous and diverse engineering faculty with contacts, and established contacts with corporate and graduate school recruitment for placement purposes. LACs lack engineering infrastructure. The humanities-eng dual-major possibilities may actually be greater at a larger university. I am not very familiar with the Rose-Hulmans and Embry-Riddles but they might also lack infrastructure...not sure. That said, I don't think a top engineering or physics major from Swarthmore would have much trouble getting into a grad engineering program at a large university but they might be coming from a very different undergrad experience.</p>
<p>Hey-la- I see your plan as a positive. Having a liberal arts background in an engineering career could be a strong asset. For one thing, it would make you stand out from the endless resumes I have to review. Additionally, there are many fields in engineering where a humanities background could be desirable .human factors liaison customer support and engineering management, to name a few. It could also be a nice first step to something like patent law. The undergraduate years are times to explore. You can specialize and focus in grad school if and when the time comes.</p>
<p>Rose-Hulman was named #1 undergraduate school for those not offering PHDs. They have lots of facilities, contacts and resources.</p>
<p>Readers of this thread might be interested in the following link to the ABET Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology web page for 2005-2006 engineering evaluation criteria. I think every undergrad engineering program is evaluated by ABET every few years to renew their accreditation. Prospective students might gain insight into the characteristics a quality engineering program...at least one that is worthy of accreditation. I think some of these criteria can be used to distinguish the very best engineering schools.</p>
<p>Plantree: If you want more info on Olin, check out the Olin College part of this forum. You also might want to check out Olin's website to answer the general "what is Olin" questions. If you have any that are a bit more specific I can try to help.</p>
<p>This is a little long, but I thought I'd list a summary of ABET criteria for evaluating undergrad engineering programs for discussion and, mostly, for the benefit of prospective students who might not know what to look for. The experts in this thread might find these criteria "obvious". I was surprised by some of the "liberal-arts-like" criteria. Here is the summary:</p>
<p>ABET criteria for evaluating basic engineering programs</p>
<p>students:
Quality of incoming students
Quality of student performance
Performance of graduates after college
Educational objectives and a plan for students to achieve them
Self-assessment process
Knowledge of math, science, engineering
Ability to design and conduct experiments
Ability to analyze and interpret data
Ability to design a system, component, process to meet desired needs within realistic constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety, manufacturability,sustainability
Multidisciplinary teamwork
Identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems
Understand professional and ethical responsibility
Communicate effectively
Broad education for understanding global, economic, societal, and environmental impacts
Life-long learning ability
Knowledge of contemporary issues
Ability to use engineering tools in engineering practice</p>
<p>curriculum:
Min One year of basic math and science appropriate to discipline
Min One and a half years of engineering science and design (apply basic science and math to engineering problems)
General education component
Major design project</p>
<p>faculty:
Sufficient number of faculty
Faculty with breadth of specializations to cover curriculum
Faculty accommodate student-faculty interaction, advising, service activities, interact with industrial and professional practitioners and potential </p>
<p>employers
Competent faculty based on education, diversity of backgrounds, engineering experience, teaching experience, ability to communicate, enthusiasm for developing more effective programs, level of scholarship, participation in professional societies, licensed professional engineers.</p>
<p>facilities:
Adequate classrooms, labs, and equipment in an atmosphere conducive to learning
Facilities should encourage student-faculty interaction and create climate conducive to professional development
Opportunities for students to learn the use of modern engineering tools
Computing and information infrastructures</p>
<p>resources:
Institutional support, financial resources, constructive leadership
Resources attract, retain, and develop well-qualified faculty
Resources acquire, maintain, operate facilities and equipment</p>
<p>ABET criteria for evaluating specific advanced engineering education (e.g.electrical, mechanical, civil, etc.)</p>
<p>Curriculum (general):
One year of study beyond the basic engineering level
Major design or research project in specialty area
Demonstrate mastery of subject area
Demonstrate high level of communication skills
[There are specific ABET curriculum and faculty evaluation criteria for each subject area]</p>
<p>ABET is really no big deal.</p>
<p>For someone who is serious about determining the relative quality of undergraduate engineering programs, the ABET criteria provide a useful starting point. They provide a rational and systematic basis for evaluating the quality and adequacy of undergraduate engineering programs. These are the criteria that are important to the engineering educators themselves. According to Narayana Rao, Ph.D., Professor and Associate Department Head Electrical and Computer Engineering at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champagne, the recent UIUC ABET re-accreditation process "shattered the myth that highly-reputed, large, research-intensive departments do not pay serious attention to the importance of ABET evaluation".</p>
<p>The fact that only a year of math/science and a year and a half of engineering specific courses are required surprised me. I will definitely be taking another look at the engineering programs I was looking at, with those criterion in mind.
Thank you!</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd has excellent profs and gives their students a well-rounded engineering/science education. Liberal arts classes are available at the other Claremont Colleges, especially Pomona, but most Mudders have their hands full with the HM curriculum. They have no problem with job placement or grad school. Rose-Hulman also has excellent profs that are equally accessible; the environment is less intense than HM and is a little more practical in its curriculum emphasis. They have good connections for midwest internships. All of these small schools will give you small classes from day 1, unlike the large schools where your first two years are filled with large lecture halls.</p>
<p>hey_la:
For accreditation, that is minimum one year basic math and science. one and a half years basic engineering and then also one year of advanced engineering specific to your specialty on top of that.</p>