Best way to stop respecting educators: read THEIR forums

Parent Cafe
1

<p>While reading a thread on College Confidential dealing with plagerism [sic] I followed the link that points to a forum at The Chronicle of Higher Education. </p>

<p>
[quote]
If you really want to be shocked, read the "In The Classroom" forum on The Chronicle of Higher Education. College professors post here about all kinds of stuff that goes on in the classroom, and plagiarism seems to be the biggest pet peeve. Here's the link to the forum</p>

<p><a href="http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,31970.0.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,31970.0.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Just browse some of the threads, you won't believe the things these kids try to get away with!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, hoping to find some interesting discussions about the difficulty of the profession, and maybe a few ideas by the "men-in-the-know" I glanced at several threads. What a disappointment! Where do those people come from? Who is responsible for letting such a group of sorry individuals be in charge of educting anyone? </p>

<p>Here's a couple of examples:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Not all LACs. At this LAC, the students parents are shelling out $31,000 a year because their little angels were too dumb to get into almost every other school in the country (with the exception of students on full scholarship--their reasons for being here is that they actually believed they would get a good education here.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>What else is there on that wondeful site?</p>

<p><a href="http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,31813.0.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,31813.0.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Now, I realize that a very hard-working, dedicated student could write a detailed, coherent, sophisticated 10-page paper with 43 footnotes, having ditched five old sources and incorporated five entirely new ones, between sometime on Friday and Tuesday morning. But this seems suspicious to me. Presumably he had been working on the paper all along, based on the sources he planned to use. Though I don't find anything on Google, I can't help but wonder if this is a paper he may have turned in for another class.</p>

<p>I don't have any basis for an accusation, but I'm awfully curious to know how he managed to pull this off. After we dispose of his complaints about the A- grades, is it appropriate for me to ask him to walk us through his process of revamping his paper?

[/quote]
</p>

<h2>
[quote]
You could also post a paragraph here for the CHE detective brigade to take a crack at.</h2>

<p>Oooh, yes, we like games like this.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So, what do we have here? A group of "well-meaning" souls offering to uncover "cheating" in a paper that was NEVER submitted to them, and asking parts of the paper to be posted on an ONLINE forum ... only to satisfy their desire to play games?</p>

<p>All along I believed that the incredibly callous actions of that Phantom Professor at SMU in Dallas were a rarity, but now there is a website where those "good" people are trying to outdo one another by glorifying their despicable and totally irrespectful behavior towards their students and the parents who pay small fortunes for their children education. </p>

<p>Reading that truly pathetic forum is a stomach-turning experience.</p>

2

<p>I would say... cut them some slack. No, it's not necessarily the attitudes we like to see. And as we all know, not every professor is a shining example of concern for students. But I'm also speculating the posters are non-tenured profs (based on my other forays on the forum). That's a freakin' tough job - little respect from the student, publish or perish, scut jobs and committees piled on you, etc. etc. They may simply be venting, which usually doesn't sound pretty, or they may be just fried.</p>

3

<p>Having taught college, and having a professor husband who just dealt with end of semester exams and grading, I empathize with the professors who are complaining about lazy students who flunked classes and now expect the professors to cut them some slack.</p>

<p>What the professor described in this post was what I have seen, too.:</p>

<p>"The grades were posted last night, and these are what I have gotten so far today:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>"I'm a single mother, and I needed to do well in this course."</p></li>
<li><p>"My grandma was in the hospital on the day of the final." (I got this from two students)</p></li>
<li><p>"...but I have a 4.0 and you ruined it!"</p></li>
<li><p>"They had switched my meds before the final, so I wasn't thinking right. Can I take the final again? I'll do better this time."</p></li>
<li><p>"Your final was so unfair. Ask anyone. I studied so hard for your class, and I can't believe all I got was a C."</p></li>
</ol>

<p>As for the LAC post that Xiggi quoted, it looks bad until you see it in context:</p>

<p>"[the poster quoted this part from someone else's post]Isn't learning how to write properly one of the primary reasons that people shell out the money for small liberal arts colleges? Don't the students get that? </p>

<p>[The poster's reply] Not all LACs. At this LAC, the students parents are shelling out $31,000 a year because their little angels were too dumb to get into almost every other school in the country (with the exception of students on full scholarship--their reasons for being here is that they actually believed they would get a good education here. The one full-scholarship student in our department is transferring the the EXCELLENT state flagship institution next semester. While she is a very good student, If she is to survive there she will have to adjust her idea of "hardwork"). That means that we are supposed to have class averages of B to give this students with 13s on their ACTs the impression that they are just as good as the students who get into the ivy-league."</p>

<p>Given the difficulty of getting tenure track jobs now at any university, I sympathize with the poster since I bet that s/he didn't go to all of the work of earning a doctorate in some field that s/he loves in order to get to teach lazy students who also are dull witted and don't care about their classes except for wanting to get high grades for doing little work.</p>

4

<p>I doubt that any profession would come off all that well if the "shop talk" of the average participants letting their hair down was subject to public view - I know lawyers and doctors wouldn't look any better than these profs. Maybe the error is putting it out there for all to see.</p>

<p>My curiosity was piqued by their use of "hu" for "he or she." Another DOA neologism. "He or she" is a problem - an awkward response to an irritating historical usage. I don't have the answer, but I doubt that "hu" is it.</p>

5

<p>Wow, that's awesome! I thought it was a fascinating read, and didn't see any problem with what they were posting...?</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
My curiosity was piqued by their use of "hu" for "he or she."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's an academic superstition. There continues to be a concern that using "he" as a generic pronoun (which is the usage of English and quite a few other Indo-European languages) encourages "sexism." I'm all for women having equal opportunity, but the reason I say that this is a superstition is that there are plenty of other languages with NO distinction of gender at all in the pronoun system that nonetheless are spoken among cultures that are very sexist. Changing incidental features of language does little or nothing to change other cultural practices--and any liberally educated scholar ought to know this, as this is an issue that has long been carefully investigated by scholars of linguistics. </p>

<p>(I'm a speaker of one of those other languages, and have lived in a country where genderless languages are the predominant languages for six years of my life, which is why I think the superstition is so silly.)</p>

7

<p>The grade grubbing forum actually did not offend me; somewhat callous maybe. They are blowing off steam for what has become a very significant problem -- students' belief that the final grade is just the beginning of negotiations. </p>

<p>Now if you really want to see how those profs grade finals go to the following:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/12/a_guide_to_grad.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2006/12/a_guide_to_grad.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

8

<p>drusba:</p>

<p>Thanks for the link. LOL!</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
Given the difficulty of getting tenure track jobs now at any university, I sympathize with the poster since I bet that s/he didn't go to all of the work of earning a doctorate in some field that s/he loves in order to get to teach lazy students who also are dull witted and don't care about their classes except for wanting to get high grades for doing little work.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, rather than finding sympathy for those people, I'd say that being denied tenure might have lots of to do with THEIR attitude. Will those professors magically improve their congeniality when granted tenure? Or will this give them the ticket to concentrate on research, publish or whatever keeps them as far removed as having to educate --and grade-- students. </p>

<p>The forum points out the negative attitude of students, and one can understand the frustration of teachers. However, is it truly as black and white as presented? What about teachers forgetting to deliver assignments until the last week, not returning graded papers, missing classes, etc? And them you can open the can of worms of high school teachers where more than a few would be incapable of grading a test without the answer key! </p>

<p>Sorry, but I still find the attitude of the participants on the CHE site to be as despicable as inexcusable. Tenured or not, they should maintain some standards and ethics!</p>

10

<p>Given the high rate of plagiarism in college, professors should be wary and suspicious. It is intellectual THEFT to hand in work that one did not write and to represent it as one's own work. It is peer THEFT to get away with not doing one's own work while other students had to put in the time. It is personal THEFT to not do the work which would have provided learning.</p>

<p>There are plenty of schools where students and their parents think they have bought grades by virtue of paying high tuition. They have not and professors have a professional responsibility to grade with integrity. This includes doing what's necessary to make sure that students did their own work.</p>

<p>Would you put up with a co-worker who misrepresented others' work as their own? Would you put up with one who was often late and thought this was no problem? If we want citizens who are responsible in the workplace and other places, then parents should support professors who hold students accountable.</p>

<p>The sentiments on the Chronicle board reflect the realities of dealing with students who have major entitlement issues. Folks, do you want coddled, irresponsible students? If not, then support professors who encourage standards and responsibility.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
If not, then support professors who encourage standards and responsibility.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Exactly! Let's encourage professors who uphold standards, integrity, and responsibility ... starting with their own. Please tell me what are the standards for the "educators" who did ask for parts of a student's paper to be posted on the internet to satisfy their sleuthing fantasies. </p>

<p>Nobody likes the fact that students try to present plagiarized works as their own. However, teachers who really know their students --and what they teach-- should be able to ascertain if the work of the student is legitimate. </p>

<p>The issue here is the ATTITUDE of the teachers, not the merit and validity of their position. There is indeed an undercurrent of entitlement on the CHE forum ... from its posters! Respect is to be earned; something those individuals did not seem to have learned before starting to masquerade as educators.</p>

12

<p>Are there separate forums for different schools on the CHE site like there are on CC? I would like to read what profs at my uni think.</p>

13

<p>I can guarantee you that you don't want to hear what teachers talk about in the teachers lounge at your local school, but that doesn't mean that your kids are not getting a good education. People will say many things in a public forum where they can be annoymous that they won't carry through with in actuality. I would also imagine that the people who post on that forum are a very small percentage of actual college professors. Remember that forums usually appeal to people with a fairly narrow set of issues or concerns. It is silly to draw any conclusions about much of anything based on what is posted on public forums. Our little forum here is a perfect example of this. There is no way that this forum reflects the majority of students applying to college. It doesn't even accurately reflect the majority of students applying to highly selective colleges. So read the posts for what they are - something written by someone who can remain annoymous and may have issues or motivation that you are totally unaware of.</p>

14

<p>xiggi: You complain that the professors have "an undercurrent of entitlement," but what do they feel entitled to? The students feel entitled to hand in work late, not follow directions, get special breaks, and fake work they should have done. The professors feel entitled to honesty from their students, work handed in on time, students who can follow repeated directions, and work done by the person who represents it as his/her own work. Personally, I favor the professors here and think they ARE entitled to honesty and hard work.</p>

<p>By the way, many universities run ALL student papers through a program to catch plagiarism called turn it in. <a href="http://turnitin.com/static/plagiarism.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://turnitin.com/static/plagiarism.html&lt;/a> I don't see why it is in any way unethical to try to catch cheaters - whether through such a program or by posting parts of a paper on-line, as suggested by the Chronicle posters. If no student names are attached, exactly what is the problem? If one professor wants to help others uphold the integrity of the learning experience by helping them identify cheaters, why is that a problem? Is the problem that they seem too enthusiastic about catching cheaters? Please explain, because I don't get it.</p>

15

<p>Momfromme, was my comment about entitlement "that" arcane? The entitlement was about RESPECT! </p>

<p>
[quote]
There is indeed an undercurrent of entitlement on the CHE forum ... from its posters! Respect is to be earned; something those individuals did not seem to have learned before starting to masquerade as educators.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>FWIW, "turnitin" is far from being a magical blackbox that crucifies unsuspecting cheaters. At best, it is a small tool for the poorly equipped. Great teachers should not need such crutches to identify work that is above the level of a student.</p>

<p>It is pretty obvious in which category some of the regular posters of the CHE forum do belong.</p>

16

<p>Xiggi,
I hope you will consider my opinion in the spirit that it is offered. I have read this forum off and on for several years, and you have always struck me as a young person wise beyond your years. I am a secondary school teacher, and I have had the pleasure of teaching students like you. I also have taught many like those described in the CHE forum that you reference. I think my "good" students would describe me as a great teacher, and with all due modesty, I concur. I deliver well-planned lessons, bringing in all kinds of primary sources to engage my students and pushing them to think like historians and literary critics. They are actively involved for 90 minutes every period--there is no down time for them or for me. Of course, for me that means a lot of extra time working beyond my contracted duty day, especially since my assignment includes four different preps in two content areas, with a wide range of student abilities. For example, of the 24 students in my freshman language arts class, about half read at grade level or above, six are on IEPs, and several others are ESL with varying levels of English proficiency; three more read at 3rd-4th grade level but do not qualify for SPED for various reasons (I also have an AP history class, an integrated honors world history and literature class, and a remedial reading class). Sixty hour weeks are not at all uncommon during the school year; that is what it takes to offer the kind of instruction and meaningful feedback I am committed to providing. During my two summer months "off," I take a two-three week complete break and spend the rest of the time in historical research or taking classes to maintain my five certificate endorsements and remain "highly qualified" under NCLB. I serve on faculty committes and sponsor two extra-curricular activities. Serious students seeking college admission and scholarships know they can count on me to provide thoughtful recommendations and advice (in fact, that is how I happened onto this forum, when I was looking for information for students to supplement that offered by our inexperienced and overloaded guidance counselor). In short, I am the kind of educator I would want my own children to have ....yet I must admit that on occasion I have engaged in faculty room talk very similar to the discussion on the grade grubber thread. </p>

<p>I think it is because I truly give my all to my students all the time that it is so disappointing and frustrating to have to deal with slackers (and their parents)who think nothing of asking for extra credit or consideration at the very last minute. How can they think they can do in one day what they haven't done in 89? The kind of teacher talk my colleagues and I share is an important venting mechanism--we blow off steam and keep on keeping on. I think that is what is happening on the CHE forum as well, and it is probably most evident at the end of a term when instructors are under a lot of pressure to finish grading final exams, papers, or projects and report grades by the deadline. In such circumstances, a quick and easy way to screen for plagiarism is a helpful tool, not a crutch for the incompetent. In fact, I insist that all papers be turned in electronically so that I can quickly and easily drop random phrases or sentences into the Google search box. Yes, it is obvious to me when an average 10th-grader suddenly starts writing like a college professor, but the burden of proof is on me, and it only makes sense to use the tools at my disposal to maintain academic integrity.</p>

<p>Let's go back to the "good" students I refer to above. They are bright, knowledgeable, hard working, and self-motivated. They appreciate the efforts of their good teachers, but I hear their talk......they can be pretty brutal in their assessment of the not-so-good teachers (I think every school has a few). Let's make this more personal.....have you ever made a sarcastic remark about an instructor? If so, does that mean you should be categorically defined as an unappreciative and disrespectful student? I don't think so, nor would I describe the students I refer to above in that way. </p>

<p>I entered my profession full of idealism--I was out to change the world, open young minds to great ideas, kindle the love of learning, all that..........my goals haven't changed, but they have been tempered by experience. I am glad you have such high expectations for education professionals--what that indicates to me is that your mental model is based on prior experience. If that is the case, you are a fortunate individual. Please hang on to that idealism, but at the same time, be willing to cut some individuals some slack. I think most of us are doing the best we can.</p>

17

<p>Xiggi:</p>

<p>Are you suggesting that college profs, having midterm grades only prior to reading term papers, could recognize which of 50 or so students has produced a paper way above that student's level without "crutches" such as turnitin? </p>

<p>I agree that the CHE forum is a way for profs to vent--nothing more. There is no reason to suggest that any of the individual profs is not utterly professional, supportive, helpful, knowledgeable in the classroom and in the office. Sometimes, the more one has to maintain an unruffled demeanor the more one has to have a way to decompress. That's all I see in the forum.</p>

18

<p>xiggi: I agree with marite about the difficulty of figuring out cheating. But it's also not just a question of discerning whether a student is cheating in passing in work he or she did not do. It's a question of proving it. Without turnitin or googling some phrases, one may not be able to prove it. And student disciplinary procedures often require this level of proof.</p>

<p>Xiggi: Isn't it good that professors are able to prove the student cheated before failing him or her for the assignment or the class? These tool are not "crutches" but standard tools for establishing cheating.</p>

19

<p>"I don't see why it is in any way unethical to try to catch cheaters - whether through such a program or by posting parts of a paper on-line, as suggested by the Chronicle posters."</p>

<p>Under US Copyright Law, anything one writes is automatically considered copywrited. Thus, it is possibly even illegal to post a paper by a student online without obtaining permission from him or her.</p>

20

<p>
[quote]
Thus, it is possibly even illegal to post a paper by a student online without obtaining permission from him or her.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Do you have any legal authority to back up that statement? Citations, please.</p>