Yes, I would, thank you.
Electricians and plumbers have post-high school education though. You cannot just graduate HS, call yourself a plumber, and know what to do.
Based on answers here, I assume there’s some sort of free education to become plumbers or HVACC technicians in their states.
So some may assume it’s the same everywhere.
Here’s what I know:
https://www.pct.edu/academics/program-finder
2 public colleges in 2 different parts of the State.
At PCT, plumbing is $22,504 for a commuter student (not many as they wish can be commuters, due to location) for the 1-year certificate.
At HACC, plumbing is also a 1-year certificate, tuition is over $8,000. Also not easy to commute to because it’s only offered at one campus.
So, for kids who don’t want to go to a 4-year college, it’s a possible path. But it still requires some sort of post-high school education and considerable expense. That’s why I was mentioning the 11-12th grade system: to get kids who don’t want to go to college ready to walk into a skilled job right after high school, then 2 years of paid apprenticeship. And perhaps have some sort of (free) high-school or community based further English/Math/Social studies classes to buttress the technical and vocational learning.
This may already exist in your state, please share!
Plumbing has another huge advantage: the job cannot be shipped abroad.
Retail is being decimated and has been for a couple years, the pandemic has accelerated the trend, so I wouldn’t recommend a young HS graduate forgo college for a job in retail.
(The “regular” jobs I know that don’t require any post high school education involve retail, landscaping, meat plant/processing, food&hospitality, some factory line manufacturing. They are not very stable, are often wage-based not salary-based, have few if any benefits, aren’t really “career” . The military is also another post-HS choice but it requires fitness not all young people possess. Factory work can pay well but is not very stable because jobs can disappear at a moment’s notice and any new opening may attract way more applicants than can be accomodated.)
A second, separate issue is that the kid who is dedicated to art or wants to be an English teacher may or may not be a good plumber.
(I take plumbing as an example because I get why it’s highly compensated: looks difficult and generally relates to emergencies. The fact it doesn’t require a 4-year degree doesn’t mean it’s easy or doesn’t require knowledge&skills, which some may be more suited for than others).
An aside:
I don’t get the idea “American higher education institutions are addicted to government money”. Funding higher education is a responsibility for the country and the States. There’s no developed nation that doesn’t see this as a necessity. How well funded is a political question, but not the fact federal/State funding is a necessity.
Basically, there’s a reason China is massively investing in universities. We don’t have to match up (and they have some catching up to do) but if we don’t see universities and having as many qualified college graduates in many subjects as vital to our future then we have a problem because other countries do and we’ll be left further behind. Right now, we can still catch up, because we accumulated a great advance in the past 50 years. But it’s slipping.
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I agree with a lot of what you say regarding education/employment but I don’t think it’s as hard and fast with regards to job entry.
Yes, certainly different states/areas have different opportunities and different situations. That is potentially why there is more debate here. In my area the counties generally have a path for high school students to take trade classes while in school. In my.mind that should be everywhere. Here there are classes in carpentry, masonry, machinist, hvac, automotive maintenance, electricity, welding, technology, etc. This certainly gives kids a heads up in the job market. It doesn’t give them a license perse to do that job, mostly they have to continue to work and improve to go further.
There are just as many kids that have an interest in a particular field, say plumbing, that can hire on as a helper with zero experience and gain that all on the job. I once got hired on to help out with a home remodeling firm (carpentry, etc). I had zero experience in that field but they taught me. I ended up working for them for four years and learning so much about home construction. I could easily start my own business after that if I so chose.
Many companies will hire a potential worker and if they work out well will pay for them to go to apprenticeships or further training. Some times people have to move to get to certain opportunities. Life isn’t always fair or easy.
Many jobs are having such trouble with finding an employee that’s a good fit. Not everyone wants to “work” these days. Honestly I’d rather have a worker with good ethics and a willingness to listen. I can train them to do my job.
The opportunities are there. I worked my way through college, AS degree. Yes, the military is limited to certain individuals but it’s an option.
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My state (CT) has vo-tech high schools where kids can train in electrical, plumbing, HVAC, culinary, carpentry, etc. etc. After graduation they go into apprenticeship positions, which pay very well. No college necessary. I see some apprenticeship positions in these fields that don’t even require a vo-tech background, only a hs diploma or GED.
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Great post, @MYOS1634.
Not all apprenticeships pay well, at all. And in many areas, including mine, in the past 20 years or so, the larger votech programs were consolidated, often quite a distance to get to. There are more small opps, yes, but mostly in culinary. And a chunk of those, here, are non-profits (a program at the food bank, one of the larger community residences, some smaller sites offering OJT leading to some certification.)
And, even once employed, once the resume growing, culinary is not truly a high-paying industry. Other than a few notable names, most are struggling.
Maybe some car shop hires rookies, but again, that’s individual.
So, Imo, it’s a mistake to point to what was available when we were younger. The more “ideal” things one can point to need to be balanced by the realities, today. Sure, we value a dedicated learner. But that doesn’t mean any kid, most kids, just need to walk down the street to find opportunities. Or that there’s some laziness, if they don’t just connect.
But really, the point here is those kids who do, by some set of criteria, both want and “deserve” college.
My plumber (female, btw,) has a set of apprentices. The only one she’s training from zip is her own nephew. The individual nature of many trades doesn’t allow for the open-ended hiring that a bigger organization can do.
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A couple of decades ago public universities were affordable for the middle class, students could work and pay for their education. Not everyone wants to be a welder or go the trade route. My children were all very successful academically, loved taking challenging classes and surrounded themselves with like-minded people. Fortunately they are following our advice to major in something they can tolerate, and find employment. They know they need to apply to the more affordable colleges in order to get scholarships, T-50 options are off the table, even though they might have higher stats than other who end up attending. Back in the 1800’s high school was for the wealthy.
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I am happy to pay additional taxes for public education, but that is what it should be limited to, just classes, as in Europe, or even, historically, here. Not sports facilities, expensive dorms, varied menu options, extensive mental health support, counselors, etc. A 4 year (Or longer) residential experience is a luxury, and not really justifiable as a public expense.
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Most public colleges and universities (other than state flagship-level universities and specialized schools like military service academies and maritime academies) are predominantly commuter based.
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I agree about keeping the focus on education. That was my point about higher education being addicted to government money. Administrations and amenities have ballooned over the last 30 years. The “commuter” based schools are not the ones with multi million dollar athletic facilities and dozens of dining options, new dorms etc… The European universities that are often touted on this website do not have most of those same amenities. For example in the UK university costs around £9200 a year excluding R&B. Their university is 3 years rather than 4 which also makes it cheaper overall. A majority of kids cook for themselves and don’t have to live in university housing which also reduces expenses. In Denmark and Germany most kids commute to school and either live at home or in housing the student chooses. R&B isn’t the big money making center it is in the US.
If the goal is to have an educated population I fully support that. If the goal is to provide every student with a fully paid for 4 year residential college experience I’m not.
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While these forums focus on residential college experience, “college” for most college students (at least those attending public institutions) is more likely to be commuting to a nearby campus. Residential experiences at public institutions are mainly for those who go to state flagship level universities or specialized schools (e.g. military service academies and maritime academies). Of course, depending on the state, a student with academic credentials to attend the state flagship may or may not get additional state or institutional aid to afford residential attendance if not in commuting range. Some states basically say “too bad if your parents cannot afford to send you to the flagship that you are academically qualified for”, but others have better financial aid at the flagship to allow higher achieving students to enroll as residential students (can kind of think of this like a “merit scholarship” where high achievers can residentially attend the flagship, but others are only funded for their local commuter campuses – California is like this, considering UC as a 9-campus “flagship” in addition to the 23-campus CSU system that is mostly focused on local area commuter students).
However, there are situations where commuting may be impractical for many students. Examples include sparsely populated areas where the closest state university is out of reasonable commuting range. Some states have significant limitations on the majors and programs available at the regional commuter universities, so that some common majors and programs require attending a more distant campus as a residential student for many people living in those states. The common example on these forums is rural Pennsylvania, where the geography puts many state residents outside of the two big cities out of reasonable commuting range of a state university, and many of the regional state universities have limited majors and programs (e.g. engineering major programs are sparse). Adding to the difficulty is that in-state financial aid to attend any state university in Pennsylvania is poor, leading to high student debt levels. Pennsylvania needs to do a lot better if it wants its residents to have accessible college education.
At the other end of the scale, some states happen to have populations that are highly concentrated around their flagships, which are extended to be most of their state university systems rather than “elite” campuses for the higher achieving students. At these states, most college-ready students (rather than just the high achievers) can attend the flagship, and most of them are in commuting range if the residential experience is too expensive for them. Arizona and Hawaii are examples of such states.
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If commuting is the majority how are they acquiring over $50k in debt if federal loans are capped at $27,000? And why are they majoring in subjects that aren’t giving them viable career/job paths to pay back the loans? What I hear is I want free college. And if I had to take out loans before those should be paid back by the tax payers. But because we can’t fix the system in one fell swoop all those students taking on loans this year and for the foreseeable future are just SOL. Oh and I might take out loans because maybe I’ll be lucky and have mine forgiven too.
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most are commuting to a school involved in predatory lending or it’s grad school.
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The in state school my son graduated from is $17,000 a year for tuition, my daughter $15,500. $27,000 doesn’t go far.
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Are there non-profit colleges (where most students attend) engaged in predatory lending practices?
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You’re not hearing well.
The 50K include students who got a Master’s degree, in part due to degree creep (teaching, social work, accounting, physical therapy now require graduate coursework.)
Those with the most debt are lower income, first generation students who were taken advantage of by for-profit “colleges”.
If you’re not lucky, if you live in a state where the public college near you doesn’t admit you, if you live too far to commute, you may have no choice but to take on debt.
You may be lucky and live in a state with lots of public universities that are affordable for a commuter with Pell Grants or whose family makes 62K (average middle class family income). But you may not.
There has to be a way to provide higher education to those who have the skills, smarts, and/or motivation, at an affordable price.
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I think there are plenty of non-profit (traditional public or private schools) that allow if not encourage borrowing in excess of what can be reasonably paid back. Especially around grad schools.
Define affordable.
Which majors for those grad schools? And how much those degrees typically earn?
Most undergrad schools don’t meet full need, so they gap students in their FA packages. Some/many may suggest filling that gap with the Federal Direct Student Loans ($27K over 4 years for most), and then if a gap remains, some may recommend a parent plus loan…but I wouldn’t call that predatory lending. Nor does that mean the student and family have to take out those loans.
IMO the $27K Direct Loans should be the limit for most students.
The bigger problems are people taking out more loans than they should because they want a ‘traditional’ college experience, and the cost of said four year college as compared to average family income.
Grad school debt is another topic entirely, but I don’t see predatory lending as a problem there either (at non-profit institutions, or medical schools for example).
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Who’s saying, “I want free college?”
Sure, we’d love it. I think it’s too easy to accuse.