Yes, it would lead to some increase in overall cost to the schools - but not equivalent to the rate at which college costs have increased. This is way beyond that and significantly out of proportion to that. If administration costs were that burdensome - then the college (like any other business) would need to to find ways to operate in a more “lean” manner in order to survive.
They would simply pass the costs onto the consumer. What’s their incentive to cut costs?
And are you suggesting schools should lend the money earmarked for financial aid/ merit? If not where would the extra funds come from?
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Like it or not, colleges are at their core - a business. They need to set and operate within a budget. They provide a service and in a free market system, those that can offer the best product for the lowest cost will succeed and thrive. Those that cannot will need to “trim the fat” or fail. The “fat” can be things such as rock climbing walls, dorms that are nicer than most hotels ect. Once the government get involved, prices ALWAYS increase.
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You’re definitely right about government involvement but replacing them with private lenders presents its own challenges.
I would say you’re right in theory. But that’s not how the college business model currently operates. People want costs to go down but I rarely see any concrete examples of how to accomplish this.
Hypothetically, what happens if certain colleges begin cutting back on costs thru curriculum adjustments, faculty and administration cuts, fewer amenities like no more all you can eat across 25 dining options, less counseling, adequate but not premium athletic facilities and so forth? Will they will lose a certain percent of applicants, including those who are full pay? Will the wealthier kids go to those still offering better academic and residential and amenities? Which colleges will lead the way in cost cutting? Will it widen the SES divide as far as which students go to which colleges?
But you’re forgetting that if someone qualifies for the under 65k income/asset requirement that UIUC is free less housing, so not paying the tuition basically saves $20K+/year and these people have to pay housing either way. They also don’t have to go to UIUC to get a degree. There are cheaper options in Illinois.
That said, in many of these cases, none of these students have to go to the best schools out there if they want a degree. There are always less expensive options. Get an AA then go to a less expensive state school, or work for a few years then finish the Bachelors degree.
As for the med school example, 100% it matters if you are an FMG. Your best bet is going to be trying to match in primary care residencies in the middle of no where but we all know sometimes kids just won’t listen and that’s possibly why so many of them have debt, because even if the families could afford it, they weren’t going to give their kids loans to attend med school in Grenada or elsewhere. I have a friend who’s son attended Duke for undergrad but wasn’t a top student and wound up going to med school in the Carribbean. Well, today he is basically working in a pharmacy because he couldn’t get a job as a physician. I’m not even sure he was able to get a job as a resident here. I haven’t followed up lately.
Every day on here we see parents questioning is it worth taking out 80k in debt for their kids to go to college. If they have to ask that of strangers, they should know the answer, but hell no! There are plenty of good schools kids could go to for a lot less and be just as happy. You also don’t want your kid to be the one who can’t do all the extras with their friends either when they can afford to go away for a weekend, do extracurriculars, go skiing, go on a boat, go to a birthday celebration, buy clothes, etc.
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I remember when I was getting my Masters in Teaching and wondered the same thing. How so many people were taking on debt to get their Masters to be a teacher. This was an expensive grad school and while the debt wouldn’t be 165k, for tuition it could easily have been a good $60k over the length of the program. Most people lived at home (no dorms really) or already in apartments in Chicago, and starting teacher pay even with a Masters for elementary (k-9) which was what this school specialized would be in the mid to upper 20’s. Good luck for these people in paying that back on top of their living expenses easily, not to mention in this area it’s not easy to get a teaching job at all. 100’s of applications for 1 job.
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A master’s degree gets you a whopping $2,000 more a year here in H’s district. A PhD will get you $4,000 more a year and you top out at $65K. Debt is definitely not worth it here. (And your family health insurance will run you $1800/month)
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If I recall when I first started teaching it was like $3k/year but it was also very easy to move lanes to MA+15, +30, +60 so it could add up quick since the Bachelors + was only +15 and then you needed the Masters, so it was definitely better to have the Masters since it was that amount every year so it was cumulative, but the debt isn’t worth it if you don’t yet have the teaching job. Are you saying the max pay for anyone there is 65k by steps too? Our max is more than $150k. I haven’t looked lately but I know it’s at least that much. Insurance is provided for the individual for free and then family is additional but not substantial. Teachers do very well here and the pension is nice as it’s either 2.2% or 2.5% of the avg of your last 5 years salary if I recall x the number of years you taught for the rest of your life. So for someone making 100k who taught for 20 years at the 2.5% rate, they’ll be paid half their salary forever and can retire at 55 years old. Much better than social security.
But, again, getting a teaching job here is difficult and teaching has really changed a lot over the years. I don’t think I would encourage my kids to go into it if they wanted to. The amount of bureaucratic bs and paper pushing and meetings and out of school work has become intense. I don’t think parents realize it. It has given me a whole new appreciation for my kids teachers and a lot of this was before Covid. Some of what they’re having to deal with due to Covid is unbelievable.
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$65K is the max for a PhD with 30+ years. Everyone else is below that. We have a big matrix for 0-30 years experience. Each year is slightly higher than the one before. And each year a masters is $2K more than a bachelor’s for the same year, PhD $4K more than the bachelors. You still earn more each year with a bachelor’s up to 30 years.
Wow that is nuts. A lot of hard work and so underpaid. No wonder there is such a huge teacher shortage in some areas and so many are leaving the profession to go into industry or other areas.
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We have a friend that went to school in the Carribbean and he has done incredibly well. This thread seems to indicate that all of those that do not go to top med schools in the US are doomed but this is not what I have seen, although my sample size is one…
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Very good point. I think there are anomalies to every instance. It’s actually no different than the threads that say you must go to a top college or any college to do well. My own child didn’t go to college and is highly successful so I should be cognizant that a degree isn’t required to be successful nor is a degree from a top school always necessary either. It’s often a case of what you do with the degree or yourself that can determine how successful you are.
Thanks for the reminder!
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Bad example. I’m guessing you don’t live in PA. Penn St and Pitt are extremely expensive and Penn St is super stingy. Pitt is too for need based aid. Pitt is better for super high scores, but only super high. A student who can get into Penn St (main campus) is likely to have matching offers at many private schools.
A sample size of one is a very bad one to use. My lad is doing the residency crapshoot now and I can’t count how many times he told us he’s thankful we asked about Caribbean schools and opted not to go that route to save money. So many who chose those places on a message board his specialty is using have vented frustrations about not even getting residency interviews, much less residency slots. He feels really sorry for them.
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Here’s a site with a ton of college data. What you’re thinking should be chosen already is. I’m not sure why folks think most students attend private colleges:
- 16.4 million or 75.1% of college students at all education levels attend public institutions.
- 13.8 million or 78.9% of undergraduates attend public institutions; 21.1% attend private institutions.
- 60% of graduate students attend public institutions; 40% attend private schools.
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This info is in the same link:
by Economic Status
- Students from the highest quintile of socioeconomic status are 50% more likely to enroll in college than those in the lowest quintile.
- 42% of students from the lowest quintile of socioeconomic status pursue a 2-year degree; 32% pursue a 4-year program.
- 78% of students from the highest quintile of socioeconomic status seek a 4-year degree; 13% pursue a 2-year degree.
- 37% of students from high-income status families and 7% of lower-income students first enroll at highly selective institutions.
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I can make it a sample size of two. A very good friend went to St. George. She did a double residency in psychology and neurology and is happy with her career.
How recently did she graduate?
Forbes has some info with stats:
The match system is extremely complex, with both the hospitals and the applicants ranking each other in order of desirability. Some programs are more selective about whom they will interview, with 68% of programs saying they seldom or never interview international medical graduates who are U.S. citizens.
For U.S. allopathic medical school graduates, 93.9% matched into a program. This number has been relatively consistent in recent years. The NRMP doesn’t break the data down by specific country, but for all international medical school graduates, 59% matched into first-year positions (PGY-1).
For Caribbean medical school graduates, it can be challenging to get matched into some of the most competitive specialties. According to NRMP, in 2019 U.S. allopathic seniors filled more than 90% of the spots in the following specialties:
- Integrated plastic surgery (91.9%)
- Neurological surgery (91.8%)
- Orthopedic surgery (91.8%)
- Otolaryngology (93.9%)
- Thoracic surgery (91.9%)
However, for students who want to pursue a different specialty, like internal or family medicine, a Caribbean medical school might be a good option. In 2020, the majority of graduates from SGU, AUC, Saba University and Ross University matched with an internal medicine or family medicine residency program.
According to NRMP, U.S. allopathic seniors filled less than 45% of the spots in the following specialties:
- Family medicine (39.0%)
- Internal medicine (41.5%)
- Pathology (33.4%)
- Pediatrics - Primary (40.0%)
- Surgery - Preliminary (23.9%)
It Can Be Done!
ETA: One can really see the skew toward Family/Internal med on this data chart from the NRMP. Buyer beware.
And for anyone wanting “light” reading, here’s the info on total applicants to successful applicants for IMG’s and various specialties. One can get the same info for MD and DO schools on the same site, but different pages if they’re interested.
Overall page to access other data:
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Psychology isn’t a medical residency.
I meant Psychiatry.