Big name public universities (Berkeley/UVA/Michigan/UNC/UCLA) Versus Non-HYP ivies

College Search & Selection
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<p>"In few words, this post offers a perfect exhibit to what IS wrong with that system. Assuming that I am a student interested in taking BPOL 560 (Foreign Policy and the Management of International Relations) I would know that I would be taught by Philip Potter. To form my decision to sign up for this class, I would check the CV of Potter and perhaps ask around about his tendencies and background. On the other hand, I will know absolutely nothing about the person who will … grade MY papers, except that it probably is a person who just took the same class. In addition to the great concerns about qualifications, should I worry about the political views of this TA, or simply his or her country of origin? For instance, could this have an impact on the review or grading of a paper on “Mis-Underestimating Terrorism” or a discussion about opening the southern border of the United States? Again, evaluating a faculty member is easy because of papers and research. A TA? Dream on!”</p>

<p>Xiggi, give me a break with your ridiculous assumptions. You really underestimate research universities such as Michigan. I listed the job description, but I didn’t list the qualifications, which are available below:</p>

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<p>Applicants also have to submit a resume/CV and transcript. The selection criteria is so extensive that it easily weeds out those who are not committed and qualified for the job.</p>

<p>Another thing you fail to recognize is that professional master’s programs admit students from very diverse backgrounds. In my graduate cohort, I have classmates who have advanced degrees (e.g., MDs, PhDs) who are seeking a career change. If they are looking at TAing as a way to finance their graduate education, I have no problem with that. I also don’t have a problem with a master’s student grading undergraduate exams and papers (in my current position, I graded undergraduate papers!) as long as they have prior advanced knowledge of the material and can establish rapport with students. In the end, the professor ALWAYS reviews the grades before they become final.</p>

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<p>Not a phenomenon unique to the Ivy League research universities, perhaps common to CS departments.</p>

<p>A dear friend of mine, currently an undergrad at Carnegie Mellon University (which has a CS department that is peer to those of MIT, Stanford, and Berkeley), is a T.A. for “Operating System Design and Implementation,” which is one of the most advanced and difficult CS courses, a gold star on any resume.</p>

<p>He likewise teaches discussion sessions, holds office hours, and grades exams. Both undergraduates and graduates were enrolled in this class, the latter making up the majority.</p>

<p>So, at one of the nation’s premiere research universities, you’ve got an undergrad TA’ing an advanced course for mostly grad students.</p>

<p>I have no problem with this, since I know my friend is supremely knowledgeable and exact, a clear and patient instructor. Others, however, may.</p>

<p><a href=“IdP Selection”>IdP Selection;

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<p>Ridiculous seems to be quite popular a word at UMich.</p>

<p>What’s next? Attacks on grammar and spelling?</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/945715-western-michigan-u-michigan-2.html#post1065093099[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/945715-western-michigan-u-michigan-2.html#post1065093099&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Xiggi, I really fundamentally disagree with most of what you are saying. The only thing I will agree with you on is that having a Masters(or UG) TA solely responsible for teaching a full college course(i.e. a 3 or 4 credit course) is a pretty bad idea, however this is extremely rare and I know of nothing like this happening at the University of Michigan.</p>

<p>I completed a Masters degree at Purdue(another big public where research is important), and I was a funded TA there. There was, of course, a professor responsible for the course who taught the course. My responsibilities included holding office hours to answer students questions(the students could come to my office or the professors), grading, proctoring exams, giving ideas for test questions that would be edited by the prof, and giving late night help sessions. Did I ever teach class? Yes…in the two years I was a TA, I substitute taught the class twice. Both times were in my second year as a TA where I was very experienced with the class material. By the time I substitute taught for this undergrad class, I had taken numerous related graduate level courses, and had industry experience as an engineer. I really cringe at suggestion that this was a disgrace. I felt I was qualified and had a positive impact on the class. Also, this was a good and relevant experience in my professional development. While I did not continue as a PhD student at Purdue, I am now a PhD student at Michigan. It is common enough for engineering students to do their masters and PhD at different schools. Often there is work experience in-between.</p>

<p>Xiggi, you had mentioned that we have a common background in that we went to LACs for undergrad. You said…</p>

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<p>This is not at all the attitude that I was educated with at my undergrad(Carleton). For example, in one of the sciences courses I had, the prof had each student give one lecture(30 minutes) to the rest of the class. His goal was to prepare us to be TAs and professors. Others students could give helpful advice. We could learn from the mistakes are classmates were making, so we could become better teachers ourselves. I found this to be a beneficial experience. Also, it was not uncommon to have student graders or lab assistants. Do you also have a problem with this?..Perhaps, I’m misunderstanding you. At the moment what you’re saying is confusing me or just making cringe.</p>

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<p>xiggi can speak for himself of course, but I think it is pretty clear that he didn’t mean a grad student filling in for a lecture or two in a pinch, or being given an assignment as an undergrad where the prof would obviously be there as well. But to have a grad student actually be responsible for an entire lecture course…well, I can understand how people paying $50,000 a year to get a high level education could object to that.</p>

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<p>Actually, its not clear to me. He’s finding resumes online with Masters students background that say “Graduate TA”, posting them and calling them a “Disgrace”. He’s assuming that this graduate TAs where solely responsible for a lecture course…I think. This isn’t the responsibility that graduate TAs have in the vast majority of the cases.</p>

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<p>I was only referring to the two examples you gave. You said you had to fill in a couple of times for the lecture, and as an undergrad you had an assignment where you lectured for 30 minutes. I am simply saying I don’t think those kinds of very particular, rather incidental events were at all what were being discussed.</p>

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One word that exactly sums up Post #317.</p>

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Haha…says the one complaining about foreign TAs. :)</p>

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<p>Jack, this a discussion forum where people express opinions in a conversational style. It is not a place where members posts essays and expect to have each sentence scrutinized for accuracy and completeness. </p>

<p>FYI, I did not answer to UCB request to discuss TAs with glee or eagerness. It is a subject that has been discussed ad nauseam on CC and one where nobody will be swayed into changing their stance. I believe that Alexandre and I discussed this more than five years ago, as well as exchanged numerous statistics borrowed from the Michigan websites. I am sure that the statistics produced by the GSI unions that claimed to teach more than half of the classes at Michigan is still around, just as the numbers used by Alexandre to reduce that number to single digits. Actually, despite its irrelevance to this discussion, here’s a quote of the past (read 1999) :</p>

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<p>Regarding the question you raised, please note that I did not write that TAs ARE a disgrace. I wrote that the practice of using inexperienced TA is a disgrace. Hardly the same thing! </p>

<p>As far as posting the resumes, this was in direct answer to Alexandre’s statement that ONLY doctoral students were engaged as TAs, AND your subsequent explanation about PhDs. </p>

<p>As far as making assumptions or speculating about the assumptions of others, I believe that it best to leave that slippery slope to your peers at Ann Arbor. It should be pretty clear that I understand the differences between merely leading a section and having much broader responsibilities such as grading … research papers, holding office conferences, and having a major influence on the curriculum and final grades.</p>

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<p>Indeed, and especially those from Latin America with their pesky language!</p>

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<p>Of course.</p>

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To assume that an inexperienced TA has those responsibilities is … ridiculous. :)</p>

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<p>Nice repartee … cum smiley and ellipsis!</p>

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<p>xiggi, I think you are making major generalizations. Misuse of TAs is extremely rare these days. There were myths about such practices back in my days, but even then, they were uncommon. However, in the years since then, most universities have intensified the screening process for TAs. English proficiency is now a must. </p>

<p>Although I was not a Political Science major, I assume that Political Science and Philosophy professors will select TAs who share their ideologies. I only took a handful of Political Science and Philosophy courses in college (2 of each actually) and none had TAs, but for the large introductory courses, I am fairly certain that if you are going to have a professor that is on one extreme of the spectrum, her/his TAs are not going to be on the other extreme.</p>

<p>Finally xiggi, I know which university you referred to as being “greatly superior to Michigan for both undergraduate and graduate schools”. Although I agree that as it is one of the 5 universities that I consider superior to Michigan, I do not agree with the “greatly” part. No university is greatly superior to Michigan, particularly not at the graduate level.</p>

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?.. Now you know how a foreign student tries to say your name. It is not nice, xiggi, regardless the arguments.</p>

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Why? Maybe at the beginning. Think why those Teaching Assistantships are awarded to them.</p>

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<p>On post # 1, I started this thread showing the overall trend of the rising of Non-HYP ivies (.i.e., Brown/Columbia/Cornell/Dartmouth/Penn) versus falling of big name public universities (Berkeley/UVA/Michigan/UNC/UCLA/UIUC/UTAustin/Wisconsin) based on USNews’ assessment for undergraduate rather than graduate education. It’s a very different story for graduate education. </p>

<p>About two months ago, NRC published their decadal assessment of doctoral programs. R-rankings (quasi reputation-based) and S-Rankings (survey-based) are the two major components used for NRC 2010 rankings. It is not difficult for one to find a high degree of disconcert between the two. In spite of controversy, I like R-rankings for they reflected the contemporary reputation survey of institutions, similar approaches used for their (NRC’s) 1983 and 1995 rankings. MetaEzra, a website founded and run by Cornell alumni, posted its overall PhD programs rankings entitled “In Composite 2010 NRC Rankings, Cornell Ranks 9th” based on R-rankings of 12 core fields. </p>

<p>Please see the comparative results between aforementioned universities for both undergraduate and PhD education. </p>

<p>PhD Programs Rankings in 2010 (MetaEzra 2010):
Cornell (9), Columbia (13), Penn (14), Brown (25), Dartmouth (82)
Berkeley (1), UCLA (6), Michigan (8), UTAustin (15), Wisconsin (16), UIUC (17), UNC (22), UVA (36)</p>

<p>Undergraduate Rankings in the 2000s (USnews 2000-2010):
Penn (4-7), Columbia (4-11), Dartmouth (9-11), Cornell (10-15), Brown (13-17)
Berkeley (20-21), UVA (20-25), Michigan (22-29), UCLA (24-26), UNC (25-30), UIUC (30±40+), Wisconsin (30+), UTAustin (40+)</p>