<p>xiggi, I have nothing against either marites, yours or anyone elses observations about college alcohol use expressed in this thread. Except.... the implicit assumption that having read a review of a recording of Moonlight Sonata is much of a pretext for a discussion of space travel.</p>
<p>Yes, the title of the book is "Binge" but only two chapters out of 13 and 42 pages out of 299 deal with the college alcohol crisis or the author's discussion of the proper drinking age. </p>
<p>There's a lot more interesting valuable stuff in the book as well, as anyone who read it would see.</p>
<p>Idad, the last time we had this discussion, I posted a link showing that the driving age in many other countries is, in fact, 18 or 19, and the drinking age is often 16. </p>
<p>Not terribly practical, but appealing. That seems to be the crux of the problem: irresponsible drinking combined with driving. </p>
<p>We are expatriates in a country where there are no drinking laws. Alcohol is available to anyone at just about any age. The locals who are mostly Islamic or other Asian don't drink much. The foreign kids who have lived here throughout their transition into the teenage years are also not particularly heavy drinkers. The mystique just isn't there. </p>
<p>The kids who seem to get in trouble with alcohol, however, are the teens who come from the US for a year or two and are overwhelmed by the opportunities. Luckily most don't drive here so we don't have to worry about that aspect.</p>
<p>That's a very interesting hypothesis. And you raise an interesting issue about college near home as contrasted with college far from home. As another thread on this forum is discussing just now, "near" is becoming nearer as telecommunications technology improves. But that may or may not reduce excessive drinking. </p>
<p>I wish I knew how to make the college culture (or is it the surrounding national culture?) a little different so that we in America could enjoy legally sending our seven-year-old daughters to the corner store to buy beer (the favorite feature of the other country I have lived in for one of my American friends ;) ) without worrying about our children in college being denied a good night's sleep by drunken, rowdy roommates. </p>
<p>I'd like to hear from Texas137 in this thread: do the students at the most academically into-it dorm at MIT do a lot of wild partying, or do they have a dorm culture of sober intellectual challenge?</p>
<p>Common sense, not ad campaigns nor administrative literature, will be the best deterrent for incidents that result from drinking. Everyone KNOWS that driving drunk will increase the chances of accidents. Everyone KNOWS that getting ridiculously drunk will cause you to throw up your insides and possibly land you in the ER. Everyone knows that crimes and rapes are more likely to happen if you are drunk. </p>
<p>It's a matter of using common sense and judgment. Most people have it and the ones that don't quickly get it after a bad experience. It becomes unfortunate when that first bad experience is fatal or a serious crime, but in my opinion there's nothing you can do except make sure you go with people you trust and that you don't do anything stupid.</p>
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Except.... the implicit assumption that having read a review of a recording of Moonlight Sonata is much of a pretext for a discussion of space travel.
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<p>Hmmm... an interesting line of argument. i was careful to point out that I was basing my remakrs on the review. I've never been tempted to use the Moonlight Sonata or a review of a recording of that piece to discuss anything but music. Book reviews are supposed to give readers a sense of what's in a book--as are book titles.
As I said, I'm glad you found the book interesting. And I see that the thread has become one about binge drinking.</p>
<p>Our son was "straight edge" in HS, no alcohol, smoking drugs. Period! Most of his friends were the same, though a few imbibed in the weekend beer party when the opportunity arose.</p>
<p>His first year at college changed things. He had one alcohol relat ed episode where he was written up for disciplinary action. He was required to attend an alcohol abuse seminar with about 50 other students. Did he learn his lesson? He said so and I think so. No more college "episodes" and having a good summer with his hs friends.</p>
<p>When he called to inform me of the disciplinary write up, I kept my cool but expressed my disappointment and told him my opinion about alcohol use, to wit, "If you are drinking alcohol as a beverage, its okay. If you are drinking for some other reason, watch out! ie, have you ever drank a 12 pack of coke in one evening?'</p>
<p>I know drinking before the age of 21 is illegal and as parents we should not ordinarily condone illegal drinking. But it is totally unrealistic to expect every young ADULT to be abstainers. It is far better, in my opinion, to teach them responsibility. No drinking and driving, EVER. No binging. After a few beers, switch to pop. Dont drink as a result of peer pressure. Allow them to have a wine with a meal at home if they ask.</p>
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The drinking age is 19 in Canada. Is McGill exempt?
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<p>I don't know details about Canadian drinking age, but Canadian secondary education used to continue through grade 13, so first-year university students in Canada were generally a year older than in the US. (This has recently changed--at least in Ontario, the largest province, which now graduates students after grade 12.)</p>
<p>Perhaps at the time the author visited McGill, the typical first-year student was age 19.</p>
<p>Edit: According to this state, drinking age in Canada varies by province. In Quebec (home of McGill, which is in Montreal), the drinking age is 18. </p>
<p>One large public university on the east coast has a great solution for binge drinking. If the security guards at the entrance to the freshman dorms sees a seriously intoxicated student, they call the EMS and require the student to go to the hospital to get their stomach pumped. The bill for the EMS and the hospital procedure is sent to the parents for payment. When binge drinking hits the parental pocketbook, it will stop quickly.</p>
<p>"The president of Princeton came out against the current drinking age. "The drinking age being 21 is one of the biggest problems with promoting responsible drinking on campus."</p>
<p>Apparent5 - I don't disagree so much with the President of Princeton (other than the fact she isn't very creative, and many colleges I can cite have indeed found ways to promote responsible drinking), but rather that most 18-21 year-olds don't attend four-year residential colleges, are not in the top quintile in income, and certainly don't attend Princeton!</p>
<p>We could, as Idad stated, raise the driving age to 25, but I can't see why the thoughts of the presidents of Middlebury or Princeton are particular relevant to saving lives and improving the health status of the vast majority of 18-21 year olds.</p>
<p>Look: the vast majority of 18-21 year olds are holding down jobs. If they come in to work drunk or hungover two or three times, they are fired, period. No suspensions, or "probabtion" or "education classes", just let go. If they get a DUI, they either go to court-mandated treatment, or lose their licenses, or the ability to work to go with it. I can't see why 19-year-olds at Princeton or anywhere else should be subject to special treatment. They hire RAs, and campus police. If they find someone who is binge drinking, they can take names. (They already know who they are anyway.) The consequences of not obeying the law should be clear, and unequivocal (they are anything but on campuses these days), and it should be made clear to students that, if the college is not acting "en loco parentis", then expectations placed upon students are the same as if they were going out into the world of work. No one teaches 18-21 year olds who are out in the work world how to "drink moderately" - they learn that if they are going to function in society that there are rules, and you can bend the rules a little, and get around them, but the world isn't summer camp, and they are expected to conduct themselves accordingly. </p>
<p>If 18 year olds just out of high school and working at Costco or Wal-Mart can learn the rules, I fail to see why students with 2300 SAT scores at Princeton can't. And if a college can't teach its students how to act as responsible citizens of its own community - including how to bend the rules without being destructive of that community - what kind of commentary is that on the rest of the academic enterprise? (And that is not a rhetorical question.)</p>
<p>mini, 18 - 21 year olds working at costco or home depot are not living in artificial University town or dorm like situations which attempt to restrict their access to alcohol. If they are at home or out with friends in local communities where they live and work, they can probably get alcohol where they congregate with friends or more easily get served alcohol and drink over a period of time during the evening.</p>
<p>The university and dorm situation with its greater attempts to regulate conduct of the students, fosters "pregaming": drinking as much alcohol as quickly as possible in the dorm room before going out. Thus it encourages binge drinking more.</p>
<p>It is thought by many that lowering the drinking age and bringing it to the same age age where they can engage in other dangerous types of conduct (driving, serving in the military, marrying, voting) will help eliminate that aspect of bingeing.</p>
<p>It is thought by many that lowering the drinking age and bringing it to the same age age where they can engage in other dangerous types of conduct (driving, serving in the military, marrying, voting) will help eliminate that aspect of bingeing."</p>
<p>I know what is "thought" by many (usually college prezs worried abouct covering their butts.). Twenty years of history and data in the United States clearly indicates the contrary.</p>
<p>As to "pre-gaming" - I've never met an RA or Junior Adivsor who didn't know exactly what was going on. What I've seen could hardly qualify as "attempts to restrict the flow of alcohol" (except at Earlham, a dry campus - where, if there is suspicion of alcohol use, the RAs and campus security are instructed to go in and pour it out.) As the dean at my own liberal arts college notes, all this will change the day a death occurs on campus, and a JA is charged with negligent homicide, punishable by 5 years in the state pen.</p>
<p>Re: post #31, well said. I was waiting for you to rejoin the discussion. I would join in that question that is not rhetorical: if America's elite youth can't learn to obey the law, what is elite education all about?</p>
<p>Mini, Costco employees can drink to their heart's content at home, and in my state their own parents can legally serve them alcohol; what is not legal is for them to drive. </p>
<p>To echo MHC, a RESIDENTIAL college actually has more of a resemblance to a summer camp than to a small town inhabited by Costco employees. Although in loco parentis went out the window during my college years, part of a college's mission is, in fact, to nurture students' overall well-being, which is the same reason they distribute condoms and provide information about acquaintance rape, among other things. </p>
<p>Frankly, I think college could be a wonderful place to learn to drink responsibly, because students don't, for the most part, drive. Unfortunately, the current law puts the universities in the position of policing their dorms for illegal activity when they could, instead, be offering valuable guidance to students. When I was in college we had a bar and we all felt terribly sophisticated drinking beer or wine with one another or with faculty members there, which meant we were introduced to alcohol in the context of an adult environment. This was, I think, Shirley Tilghman's point (and I make no claims for her creativity, btw). </p>
<p>What I'd like to see this country do is let 18-year-olds drink legally, and institute some decent, affordable public transport for all. But that's another thread...</p>