BioEs Need Not Apply

<p>Bioengineering is an awesome field. I definately don't regret getting my BS in it or deciding to go for a PhD. That said, there are an awful lot of misconceptions about this major and the colleges aren't doing anyone a favor when they don't point these things out. While it is an interesting field to study, there are some major problems associated with it. And these problems lead to Bioengineers having a terribly hard time finding jobs relative to other engineers (this refers to people with a BS; for a PhD, bioengineering is often better because there tends to be a lot more money for translational research in biotech and medicine than just about any other field).</p>

<p>Problem 1: "Engineering Lite" - Bioengineering is not ABET accredited at most schools. So BioEs don't have a list of thirty requirements like the chemEs or EEs do. That sounds great right? The problem is that even if you were to work your tail off and do all those hardcore engineering classes, employers wouldn't know from looking at your degree whether you just did the lower division engineering courses and then did two years of integrated biology or avoided any theory classes like thermo, etc. </p>

<p>Problem 2: "Bio"... - Within the hard sciences and engineering, the prefix "bio" or the suffix "for biologists" is often understood as a euphemism for the phrase "for idiots." So that class you took on "biomechanics?" employers are going to look at that and wonder why you didn't take "real mechanics." </p>

<p>Problem 3: You don't have 8 years - Bioengineering is nice to do for grad school, in part because by the time you finish undergrad and your 2 or so years of grad course work, you've had time to acquire depth and breadth. It's pretty tough to acquire both in just four years of undergraduate work, especially considering that the real "engineering" courses are the ones people take in their junior year. </p>

<p>Problem 4: Math, math, math: this really is an extension of problems 1 and 3, but its probably the most important one: although it's true that mechEs, EEs and chemEs study different applications of the math they learn, during their junior year, they're all going to acquire the following skill set: 1) Signal/system analysis and a little (or a lot) of control theory. 2) Ordinary and Partial differential equations (fluid mechanics or E&M) 3) Some form of modeling. BioEs can do this, but usually only if they take classes outside their department. It's cool learning about all the developing technologies out there, but it's better if you learn the set of technical skills that will help you develop them.</p>

<p>Some of you will say that you know someone who was a bioE and has a great job. Yes, there are exceptions, particularly for the flagship undergraduate bioE programs (Johns Hopkins, Duke, UCSD; I expect MIT's biological engineering program will be also); all these programs have in common the required "real engineering" courses that allow them to escape problem 4 above. Some of you will also say that anything medically related is going to have great job security; to that I would reply that if you want job security in the medical industry, go get yourself an AS or a BS in nursing. There's a national shortage. Within biomedical engineering, most of the (engineering BS) jobs in medical devices go to people with a BS in EECs. In biotechnology and pharma, most of the jobs go chemEs. Most of the jobs that bioengineers get are technician jobs within the manufacturing of division of companies like Genentech; now, there's nothing wrong with being a technician. But why do the BS in engineering for that when your chances of getting the job are just as good as the chances of someone who did a BA in biology, which has a much slimmer set of lower division requirements. </p>

<p>Since I've posed this problem, I'll also offer a solution: Bioengineering departments are going to have to make up their minds about what "bioengineering" is. Is it applied biology? Is it medical device engineering? If they want, they can be broad but assign tracks within their department (UCSD does this) to make sure that people get enough depth in a given area. Second, they have to weave the technical math and physics into the curriculum. Companies like the fact that engineers can apply math and physics to solve problems. It's often cheaper to model something on a computer; it's always useful to be able to look at a problem in quantitative terms. These companies need to know that a "bioengineer" will have the same level of theory in their background as a chem/mech/EE. And they need to know it just from seeing the words "BS in Bioengineering." </p>

<p>For those of you in your junior year who don't want to do gradschool or medical school, I would highly recommend that if you do major in BioE you minor in something else to augment your technical skills. Otherwise, if you still have time to choose your major, ask yourself "am I absolutely sure I want to go to gradschool/medschool after I finish my BS? Am I alright with the prospect of graduating to a job that will pay a lot less than the jobs that people in other engineering disciplines get paid?" If your answer is yes to either question, BioE is a fine option for you. But if you're doing engineering in part because you like the technical challenges and the prospect of a pretty good job when you graduate, you might want to think about another major.</p>

<p>It’s very important that your engineering major is ABET accredited. (When ABET offers that accreditation). An ABET accredited program is the industry standard for new engineering hires and much more important than the name of your school. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.abet.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.abet.org&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>thanks for all the information calkidd. nowadays it seems like any engineering major is having problems aquiring a job. i was debating on either EE or BioE, but lately leaning towards BioE because i expected the job market to be booming. after reading this i am having second thoughts , i do not want to work hard in school and end up struggling afterwards. well EE jobs are becoming outsourced so theres no security there either..... man oh man</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bme.uconn.edu/bme-major/BMEGrowth.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bme.uconn.edu/bme-major/BMEGrowth.pdf&lt;/a> Bad job growth.....yeah...try again</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos262.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos262.htm&lt;/a> go to the job growth section. </p>

<p>FYI people, dont let people convince you out of BioMed. Do what you want to do but don't be worried you will always have a job.</p>

<p>bioE almost always need the grad degree to have some success in the field...if you've ever known an engineer in the field who didn't get their grad degree, they've probably struggled a lot along the way. It isn't a stable job right now, and I don't expect it to be in the near future either.</p>

<p>celebrian:You dont expect it to be a stalbe job yet you are 16 and don't have anything to back it up. Sure you may know people in the field that complain but thats because they want more money and less competition so they discourage others from going into it. The government has financial analyists that crunch numbers and figure out things. They figure large job growth and they are usually right. As we speak I have investments in biomedical device companies and I am making money from em. Obviously they are doing well or I wouldn't make money. Sure you need a grad. degree to make over 100 grand a year. But if you just want a stable job that pays decent you don't necessarily need one. If you don't believe there are jobs to be found go to talk with a financial analyist and ask him how the field of Biomed is doing, his eyes will light up due to the money to be made.</p>

<p>I'm not so much talking about when you statistically break it down, but when you talk about what someone just breaking into this field is going to be met with.</p>

<p>Breaking into any field is hard. If you want to make large money right out of college go into investment or business. Biomed research and things of the like are gonna be big in the next few decades with all of the baby boomers aging and the need for more things for medicine.</p>

<p>Thanks CalKidd.</p>

<p>Reinforcing the (boring) advice to take a traditional engineering major undergrad. Employers all know what ChemEs and EEs do - they don't know about bioE. At my school, bioE isn't even a real major - you need to take it as a second major... which brings me to my next point.</p>

<p>If you want to do bioengineering or the like, get your undergrad in EE, chemE, or mechE. If you can, take a second major or a minor in bio or bioE. Start working, and have your company pay for your bioE masters (one of the great perks of engineering!). There's a lot to be said for specializing later on, but having the really solid undergrad major.</p>

<p>i have asked this question alot and have recieved no reply, but whats the difference between a BioE and a BioMed???</p>

<p>Would this same advice about taking the classes, and getting an EE major and then a biology major apply to even BMEs from Johns Hopkins U. I'm guessing their program is better known. Also why would someone hire a BME if they know nothing about BME? I'm guessing microsoft won't be hiring BMEs but companies that work in that field.</p>

<p>well a large part is your connections. So JHU has some noticable perks.</p>

<p>Plus JHU allows you to focus in on what you want to study, check this out:
<a href="http://bme-admin1.bme.jhu.edu/undergrad/manual-old/search.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://bme-admin1.bme.jhu.edu/undergrad/manual-old/search.cfm&lt;/a>
you can select which concentration you want...</p>

<p>So bigndude, I'm curious. Do you know people who went into biomedical engineering and succeeded with just a BS in BioE or Biomedical engineering? You mention "research," which automatically brings up the words "Masters" or "PhD." I'm specificaly talking about right out of college jobs. And right now, the majority of BS engineers getting "staff" positions as "engineers" at the biomedical companies are EEs and ChemEs. If you think I'm such a naysayer, I'd like some proof. Again, I think BioE is a great field and there is the potential for it to be a right-out-of-college-job kind of field; but right now it isn't. Until universities put some effort into making it a "right-out-of-college-job" field (in part, that means aggressively promoting the major to companies), it will remain what it is: good preparation for graduate school, decent (if GPA destroying) preparation for medical school, and excellent preparation for law school (for those that want to do patent work). </p>

<p>Scorp - you will see I mentioned JHU as being one of the good places to do BioE. Their major is understood by employers to be rigorous and good preparation to enter a technical company as "staff" rather than as "technician." I would argue that this is because of criteria # 1 and # 4 that I cited above. But doubling in EE at JHU will probably only help your chances. And remember, EE is NOT CS. CS might have been a good way to make a quick buck a few years ago; EE is a little less exciting as far as getting rich quick, but, particularly in biomedical devices, good electrical engineers with actual hardware skills are needed.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Problem 2: "Bio"... - Within the hard sciences and engineering, the prefix "bio" or the suffix "for biologists" is often understood as a euphemism for the phrase "for idiots." So that class you took on "biomechanics?" employers are going to look at that and wonder why you didn't take "real mechanics."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is crap. A grad degree in Biology is much more difficult than one in Engineering. Engineering is one of the easier graduate degrees to get. For UG its hard, but for Graduate it is one of the easiest. Bio classes are not for idiots. You have no idea what you are talking about. Most people I know think highly of people with Ph.D in one of the biological sciences, but not with someone with a Ph.D in Engineering. </p>

<p>The class that people think of as being for idiots is _____ for Business/Social Science. Those are the classes for idiots.</p>

<p>I'm wondering, basically, if being a BME with a concentration in Computer Science, will get me a decent job? The options for concentrations are: chemical e., computer e., computer science, electrical e., material science, and mechanical engineering, which one should I pick? I would prefer Computer Science but I can live with any of those really. (Basically the concetration, from what I understand, is your choice of what extra engineering classes to take...)</p>

<p>Scorp - do Computer science with a concentration in BME/informatics rather than BME with a concentration in computer science.</p>

<p>VTBoy - you will kindly note that I specifically referred to hard science classes like "physics" not "biology" when I used the term "for biologists." For example, at UC Berkeley, there are two sets of physics classes: Physics 7A-7C "Physics for Scientists and Engineers" and Physics 8A-8B: "Physics for the Life Sciences." One of these is regarded as being easier and less in depth, even by medical schools (arguably the best place for biologists to be): guess which one it is? </p>

<p>I have no input as far as graduate programs because that's not what I was posting on.</p>

<p>What about a biochemistry major who go back to graduate for chemical engineering majors?</p>

<p>My BS is in Bioengineering (from an ABET program) and most employers I have talked to would much rather hire someone with an EE, ME, ChE degree than with a BioE degree. Why? I was told that it is much easier to teach an engineer the biology than to teach a biologist the engineering. Not my words, but still, probably true and reflects the notion that bio/medical engineers are not really engineers.</p>

<p>What is even more interesting is that most of the Bioengineer/Biomedical Engineer positions are advertised as EE/ME/ChE positions. As a BioE you have to convince the employer that they need a BioE not an EE/ME/ChE. This is different on the east coast where BioE programs are more common and recognized as "real" majors.</p>

<p>Anyway, if anyone wants my advice, (I know you didn't ask for it. :) ) I suggest a major in EE/ME/ChE with extra research or courses in Biology. You can always go to graduate school and do a project in bioengineering but get a degree in a recognized engineering major.</p>

<p>Oh, and I did biomedical research with my BS and have knew a few others who got jobs as Research Engineers, too. Most had move to various places around the country, though. Many, many more of my classmates/colleagues went back for graduate degrees in Chemical Engineering when they couldn't get jobs.</p>

<p>calkidd and others: THANKS so much for such detailed inormation! Extremely useful stuff.</p>