<p>However, I do have to add that I do know at least three totally unhooked, white or asian students from my kids’ school going to Yale or Princeton next year (none to Harvard interestingly), non athletes, non development, just super, super smart. But maybe they are the exception.</p>
<p>As an engineer I like to do these things mathematically. The top 10 or so preps generally draw from the top 2% of the high school student pool. In a nation generating more than 3M high school seniors annually, that’s 60,000 kids. Since there are approx. 15K spots at Ivy+SM after you remove internationals, that means the top 2% have an overall 25% success rate getting into those top colleges. Top preps, drawing from the same pool generally have a percentage ranging from the low 20s to low 30s. That seems about right. Of course there are all the factors we normally talk about such as legacies, URMs, athletes, geographic diversity, etc. on both sides, but the data shows that it’s very hard to get into those schools from anywhere and there is no “obvious” conclusion that can be drawn as to the “best” path to the most highly sought colleges. Kids should pursue the best secondary and post-secondary educations given their skills, interests, financial resources, etc. (which, in many cases, will not be at the highest rated BS or college) and let the chips fall where they may. If they’ve made smart decisions and done their best, the results will overwhelmingly be positive.</p>
<p>Note: About 1/3 of those Ivy+SM matriculations are at Cornell and Penn, so “getting in” does not necessarily mean that dream trip to Cambridge. I should also note that I attended one of those schools so please keep the “they don’t count” comments to a minimum.</p>
<p>What I meant to add was- no unhooked kids going to Harvard. There were some athletes. And yet, they continue to mail marketing materials and paper applications to everyone above a certain SAT score! My kids learned enough just to throw that stuff away.</p>
<p>What does URM mean or stand for? I think boarding school increases your chances for ivy league.</p>
<p>URM = Under-Represented Minority</p>
<p>And <em>why</em> do you think it increases your chances? We’re trying to get something more decisive than just opinions unsupported by evidence.</p>
<p>If we look at the Ivy League as a whole, being in the top 5-10% at a top BS seems to give you a very good chance at getting accepted to at least 1 Ivy League. But let’s consider the top 10% at Andover. That’s 32 or so students. But I can say with complete confidence that not all of these would have been number 1 at their schools (I wouldn’t have, for instance). Would I have gotten into an Ivy had I gone to a public school? Chances are no, mostly because I would have lost my “hooks” (excellent performance in activities and subjects not even offered at the public high school). Now consider a student at Andover who is between 10% and 20%. They might not have been number 1 at their school, but those people certainly might have been, as well. It’s much harder for these students to get into an Ivy from Andover, but had they been number 1 at a public school, there’s a chance for them.</p>
<p>What needs to be done to come up with any conclusive answer is determine if the students who do get accepted from a boarding school would have also gotten accepted from their public school, and if those who got rejected would have also gotten rejected at their public school. Without that, how can we really say?</p>
<p>For the “non-hooked” many find passions that make them impressive to the Ivy League (like you uroogla). I get the feeling that many people feel comfortable going outside of the norm and doing something impressive at boarding school. Where as maybe they would be the top at PS, but not really break boundaries in anyway that makes HYPS want them especially…maybe get into one of the lower ivies.</p>
<p>OP said: " . . .it’s not as if there is no relationship between the quality of the high school’s educational program and the attractiveness of the applicants they produce and matriculation statistics. My question to these people who think there is no relationship . . ."</p>
<p>Is it still called a “red herring” to invent an argument not proposed, then intend to prove one’s original point by critiquing the hyopothetical argument?</p>
<p>There are so many confounders in your argument:
- how many of those students would have matriculated into HYPed schools anyway?
- what are the factors other than quality education that are assoicated with prep school matriculations into HYPed schools?
- isn’t acceptances by HYPed schools is a better indicator of your point than matriculation?
- are there other measures - say, SES, or parental education -that are more robustly associated with acceptances into HYPed schools than attendance at a prep school?</p>
<p>Last, the biggest problem is the same one that the WSJ made a few years ago when it ranked the quality of high schools by matriculation into HYPed schools: the assumption that NOT matriculating into HYPed schools is a sign of lesser quality; that was both lazy journalism and bad sociology . . . although it sells to their audience.</p>
<p>Kei</p>
<p>How could they not add Stanford to that? I would turn down HYP for stanford in a second. And I’m sure a math person would do the same for MIT. But w.e, I guess it really doesn’t even matter, at least they stated what they were basing it on. It’s up to the reader to infer things.</p>
<p>Uroogla, are you suggesting that in Andover, where 30%+ enter ivies + SM each year, the unhooked would have a good shot if he/she was among the top 10% of the class?</p>
<p>I think that he/she is…someone has to go to the lower ivies.</p>
<p>@mpicz: By that you mean ivies other than HYP?</p>
<p>No. Darmouth, cornell, brown</p>
<p>@NoDrama:</p>
<p>I knew someone in the top 10% rejected from the Ivies he/she applied to. This person was relatively unhooked (not a legacy, not an URM, almost no clubs, not a competitive athlete, not an artist, etc. Solid grades and GPA, but not enough otherwise). What it comes down to is that very few people do so little out of academics at Andover. Being in the top 10% is no guarantee one will get into HYPSM. Being this high, however, seems to make up for unexceptional ECs, so long as there’s something there, some passion that shows through and was followed up. Now, Andover sent 36% to Ivies + Stanford + MIT this past year (it was a better-than-average class, but that’s not too high above the school’s recent average). Most of the top 10-15% fit into this. Some, however, had lower overall grades but clear strengths in some academic fields, such as English or Physics. Students applying to MIT aren’t held to the same standards in humanities as those applying to Yale, generally. So while the class rank might not be exceptional for some students, they are, themselves, exceptional. It is primarily for this reason that Andover does not explicitly calculate class rank. In addition, athletes around the middle of the class are prepared to do the work well enough that they may be recruited.</p>
<p>So simply put, the answer is “yes.” Had I been a little bit better at math and made IMO rather than finishing in the middle of the USAMO pack, I might now be attending Princeton. My “hook” was not impressive as that of others, including a female engineer, a student who finished in the top couple dozen in the national physics exam, used to determine the team for IPhO, and some exceptional writers. I wouldn’t consider myself “unhooked,” but I did not have the hooks of most of the students accepted to HYPSM.</p>
<p>@mpicz:</p>
<p>It’s not guaranteed, but the odds seem to be in the favor of these students. Here are the college matriculations of the 32 students elected early to the Cum Laude Society for best grades during the 4 hardest terms at Andover, and thus the closest we’ll come to a list of the top 10%. Unlisted means I couldn’t find anything on Facebook listing the college.</p>
<p>Yale: 7
Harvard: 5
Columbia: 3
Stanford: 3
Dartmouth: 2
Princeton: 2
UPenn: 2
Brown: 1
MIT: 1</p>
<p>Claremont Colleges: 1
UChicago: 1</p>
<p>Unlisted: 4</p>
<p>Now let’s look at the students elected in June, the 32 students with the best grades for senior year and upper spring not already included above:</p>
<p>Harvard: 5
Princeton: 4
Stanford: 2
Columbia: 1
Cornell: 1
Dartmouth: 1</p>
<p>Bard: 1
BC: 1
BU: 1
CalTech: 1
Duke: 1
McGill: 1
Middlebury: 1
NYU: 1
Reed: 1
UChicage: 1
UMichigan: 1
Wesleyan: 1
Williams: 1</p>
<p>Unlisted: 4</p>
<p>Take from that what you want.</p>
<p>Impressive research that strongly supports your arguments. It’s interesting to note that of the 5 major prizes awarded at graduation, 2 went to students in the first group, 2 in the second group and one that wasn’t in either. The two students in the first group are going to Harvard. The two in the second group are going to Caltech and Duke (on the extraordinarily selective and prestigious Robertson Scholarship), both of which are, at a minimum, Ivy-comparable. The one not selected is going to Columbia. Each award has different criteria, but they combine scholarship with citizenship, athletics, etc., which reinforces Uroogla’s point that those in the next few tiers academically can make their case by combining strong academics with other value propositions.</p>
<p>It should be clarified that membership in the Cum Laude Society is based on a 4 term average. For those selected in the first group the terms are all three trimesters of upper year (11th grade) and the first term of senior year - the most important terms to college admission personnel. Therefore, their admission to the most selective colleges should come as no surprise. The second group is selected based on last term of 11th grade and all of the senior year - at least two of which are not considered in the college admissions process. So one could finish strongly and earn membership but not have it reflected in college admissions decisions (particularly for those admitted ED where 3/4 of the terms would not be relevant). However, even if a few such cases exist in the data set they probably wouldn’t greatly affect the conclusions drawn.</p>
<p>Thanks Uroogla. That is great info! I am glad my earlier “conclusion” didn’t prevail. That would’ve been depressing news people could take away with after this discussion. All I can say is that you’ve made a strong and convincing argument with real data and with your own case as an example. Thank you.</p>
<p>Padre13, I looked up the news about the 5 major pizes awarded in the graduation ceremony. Now, I noticed all 5 recipients were day students, 4 from Andover and 1 from North Andover. Coincidence? Were they Andover faculty kids?</p>
<p>Uroogla, great job, interesting data. The stat I would love to have, but is impossible to get:</p>
<p>Among the top 20 boarding schools and during the college application process, how does the top 50% of each class rank their first, second and third choice University/College. Does the vast majority of that group choose HYPSM or do smaller, elite Universities of Colleges dominate the top choices among some of the best boarding schools? Do the personalities of certain top 20 boarding schools produce student bodies who tend to go down a particular path?</p>
<p>Sometimes I think that a sizable percentage of the “HADES”/HYPSM kids/parents on this site cannot get their head around the idea that there are many students and parents who actually choose non-HYPSM University/College options, not because they would be denied admission to HYPSM but because they genuinely prefer something different.</p>
<p>Parlabane, top 20 is a big group that is hard to generalize. Even the top 10 are very different in terms of college placement. I honestly agree with you that “many students and parents who actually choose non-HYPSM University/College options, not because they would be denied admission to HYPSM but because they genuinely prefer something different”, but the reality is that with top boarding schools the majority of students would choose an ivy, s, m or one of the top 3 lacs(?) when they have a choice. That is at least one major reason why HYPSM are so hard to get in - the market drives it.</p>
<p>Looking at Uroogla’s data provided above, more than 80% of the students elected early to the cum laude society (top 10% of the class) chose to attend an ivy, and 50% HYPMS.</p>
<p>Parlabane- “genuinely prefer something different” is my experience, but maybe that’s not the norm from what the rest of the group is saying.</p>
<p>No Drama, I think it was just an odd statistical occurrence. The year before they were all boarding students. Of this year’s winners one is the son of a faculty member. As far as I know the others are just smart kids from the local area.</p>
<p>Also worth noting is that 4 of the 5 students winning these big awards in 2008 went to Yale and the 5th to Dartmouth. I know that the student who won the Non Sibi Award in 2009, who is going to Cal Tech, planned to go to Cal Tech regardless of her Ivy decisions, since Cal Tech had a much stronger program in her desired field. I still believe that, given the choice, I would have chosen Brown over Princeton (or any of HYPSM) because the Open Curriculum was what I wanted.</p>
<p>@Parlabane</p>
<p>That certainly would be interesting to see, but pretty impossible to do, even just for Andover.</p>