<p>Georgetown does not consider writing scores.</p>
<p>Personally speaking, I think it is ludicrous to expect students in the year 2007 to write, in pencil, a persuasive essay which might impact their entire lives. These kids have used a keyboard for writing purposes since they were 10 years old. I know that at our local public school, every child from grade 3 onward is issued his/her own laptop and that is where all their written work goes. They don't even turn in papers with pen and paper after that time. How can these children really do well on a hand-written exam? Heck, half of them probably never learned cursive!</p>
<p>If they want to have a writing test, the CB should let 'em spend two hours in an exam room with their choice of paper/pencil or word processor, with somewhat limited tools. </p>
<p>Well, it is only pondering on my part... my nephew knew that the college of his choice specifically said they do not even look at the writing portion, so he took a small nap during that part of the exam.</p>
<p>fencersmother, I believe many college courses still require exams to be written in class, by hand, in the standard "blue book". If these students don't know cursive and really are incapable of writing an essay by hand, they might be in trouble down the line.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, I understand what you are saying. My son's handwriting is terrible, the standard lefty smearing everything all over the page, and cramped up to boot. Despite that, he got an 800 on the writing portion of the SAT I. The essay part was a 10 (5 from each scorer). After taking a look at the online reproduction that is available after the exam is scored, I am shocked any reader had the patience to wade through it.</p>
<p>vicariousparent- I sure hope the 25 minute essay is much different from the polished essay. </p>
<p>Writing is about editing and rewriting - please show me the well controlled research that demonstrates a correlation between the style and voice of a student's SAT essay and an essay written with much thought and time for editing and rewriting. Also, blue book exams are NOT like SAT essays. If you are taking a blue book exam, presumably you have some familiarity with the topic (you ARE taking the course, right?) and have had some time to study for the exam or read course materials in preparation. Given a question you should have recall of information to help guide through the structure of your response. If you have never been to a lecture or read the readings, maybe then the situation is exactly the same - my son told me he lost time just trying to think about the question and come up with some examples - how can that be the same? My son is an excellent writer given the opportunity to review and edit. His first drafts do not resemble his final works in any way - I am genuinely concerned that the adcoms are going to think someone else wrote his essays. Plus he is a laborious writer who has to give up legibility for content,or vice versa, under time constraints of the SAT test. </p>
<p>I would like to see the research that validates this as a measure of writing ability and especially how it correlates with blue book essays for tests and autheticity of voice and style. Better to have each student's English teacher send in a graded thesis paper but then someone would have to read them!</p>
<p>midmo - if the student has dysgraphia and cannot write fluidly or quickly enough to keep up or respond on a timed test, he/she may be eligible for use of a computer or other accommodation. He/she should have another means of proving knowledge (oral response to questions, for example). With appropriate testing that identifies handwriting and handwriting speech as a problem, accommodations can be identified for the student and set down in a 504 Plan that ensures he/she is not discriminated against. .</p>
<p>JohnC, my son got a 11 and he's not even close to being a published writer or winning essay contests. LOL!!!!! His SAT essay is about as good as it gets, I guess. Older son got a 9 and, well I don't even want to go there.
Writing an essay under the 25 minute/random prompt condition is no way going to reflect how a person writes when he is prepared, ready, well-studied, has thought about the topic beforehand.</p>
<p>It certainly doesn't show by the way I post in CC, but when I'm writing something that "counts", I do much better. You wouldn't recognize my writing. First of all, I have probably thought about it longer; secondly, I can go back and revisit it after a day or two, and usually find all kinds of clumsy constructions and bad grammar; third, I come up with totally new ideas and inspirations in the meantime to improve the thesis and flow even more.</p>
<p>The essay writing portion of the SAT is like basing a person's ability to hit the baseball on one pitch/swing of the bat.</p>
<p>My son could write excellent essays for APUSH, he was familiar with the subject and practiced a lot as well. He found the form of the SAT essay very off-putting. I think he got a nine on the essay the second time around. (I don't think he got any brownie points for using Star Trek as an example, though it worked perfectly in the argument.) Like Doubleplay, I write much better when it counts than I do on CC. I do appreciate though, that a few posters really take the time to write more eloquently than I do. Their posts are a pleasure to read.</p>
<p>I think the basic premise of the essay section is flawed and doesn't relate to a thoughtful writing process. From the article, the implication is that it is too easy to teach a formulaic method of scoring well on the essay without having any writing ability. Therefor those who can afford (time and money) to be trained for the SATs will do better. My kids never trained for an SAT and don't write to formula but both did well. My eldest scored 800 on the original SAT-II writing but it didn't help her get into her first-choice "writers school" since they don't use SAT scores. My second D got so flustered the first time she took the new Writing SAT she spent too much time composing her thoughts to actually answer the question asked and very little time writing, filling less than two pages. She scored 4+5=9. The next attempt she did basically the same thing, wrote even less, and scored again a 4+5=9. On a third try, encouraged by me, she spent less time thinking, wrote her full two-page essay using examples from work she was doing currently in school, mentioned writers she'd studied whether they pertained to the question or not, and tossed in Shakespearian references. Her format was far from formulaic and was mostly written conversationally, with her normal multi-syllabic vocabulary, and she scored a 12. Go figure. She scored 99th percentile on the total Writing section that time even though it was her worst score on the multiple-choice section, demonstrating the weight given to the essay section.</p>
<p>Fencersmother i'm with you on this one. Writing by hand (cursive or otherwise) is becoming obsolete and i expect that in another 50 yrs or so it will be relegated to the status of a quaint hobby- like calligraphy, knitting, sewing, etc. Unfortunately the educational system and especially the testing system is not too good at preparing for the future, or even recognizing the present.</p>
<p>I disagree and feel developing legible writing is at least as important as learning to solve algebraic equations. There will always be a place for writing, and a thoughtful note in one's own handwriting. Come the revolution when we are without power transmission capability, at least our offspring will be able to keep a journal that someone might be able to read later. ;)</p>
<p>In fifth grade at my school we were required to take Italic Writing primarily to impact our penmanship so our teachers could actually read what we wrote during our school careers. If we substitute penmanship for learning the Microsoft scrawl necessary to input to PDAs via OCS, or texting, we lose part of what makes us human and individuals. I think the demands of creating thoughtful, coherent communication by one's own hand without the facility of editing provided by cut-and-paste technologies can only improve our kids' ability to put together thoughtful verbal communication without the "like" and "umms" that provide filler and pause for reflection today. And they should learn it with pens with no erasers. Maybe even using a nib with bottle ink would serve better to promote thoughtful reflection over verbosity. Might make them value each individual word a bit more. As contrary to the SAT essay as that might seem. Remember the phrase: "Be sure to engage brain before operating mouth"?</p>
<p>
[quote]
Fencersmother i'm with you on this one. Writing by hand (cursive or otherwise) is becoming obsolete and i expect that in another 50 yrs or so it will be relegated to the status of a quaint hobby- like calligraphy, knitting, sewing, etc. Unfortunately the educational system and especially the testing system is not too good at preparing for the future, or even recognizing the present.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While calligraphy might be an art form that has seen better days, the value of decent pensmanship SHOULD be far from obsolete. This is not very different from value of being able to do mental calculations instead of grabbing the TI or HP without thinking. Everything has a purpose. The ability of writing legibly should be encouraged again and be part of a set of mininum skills possessed by ALL students without exception. Simply stated, we are simply making up too many excuses. In a way, this form of self-expression is a form of respect towards others.</p>
<p>I admire the talent of older people --and some young ones-- whose handwriting is beautiful, and I wish mine would be a lot better than it is.</p>
<p>I posted this in the SAT area, but here is Northeastern U's reply to this letter - it was in today's Boston Globe (9/24):</p>
<p>IN RESPONSE to "Many colleges ignore SAT writing test" (Page A1, Sept. 20), we wish to assure students and parents that Northeastern University is not "ignoring" the test. We are constantly on the lookout for measures that will predict success at Northeastern. Part of our search involves identifying the "noncognitive" traits, such as creativity and resiliency, that are most tied to student success, and looking for these traits in our applicants. Another part involves the cognitive skills, the kind designed to be measured by tests such as the SAT.</p>
<p>This year, researchers at the University of California found that high school grade point average was the single best predictor of the longer-term success of their students. After high school GPA, the next best predictor was what is now the SAT writing test.</p>
<p>As one aspect of continually evaluating the factors associated with student success at Northeastern and beyond, we attempted to replicate their methodology, and found much the same thing. Our evaluation does not judge whether the SAT writing test is a valid measure of writing ability. It is, however, picking up some qualities clearly important to academic success. We cannot ignore that.</p>
<p>NEAL FOGG
Director of enrollment research</p>
<p>RONN</p>
<p>
[quote]
This year, researchers at the University of California found that high school grade point average was the single best predictor of the longer-term success of their students. After high school GPA, the next best predictor was what is now the SAT writing test.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>1) Why do schools need to focus on a "single best predictor"? Just because it is the single best predictor doesn't mean it is a good predictor. Presumably a combination of factors works better than any single factor. Otherwise, why even bother with anything other than GPA?</p>
<p>2) Since there is no record of "longer-term success" with the SAT writing test - it's only 2 years old - how can it be any kind of predictor, much less "the next best predictor"? What precursor to the SAT writing test is UC referring to?</p>
<p>They're referring to the old SAT II Writing test, which doesn't exist any more. The schools that previously required 3 SAT IIs, but now require only 2, required one to be Writing.</p>
<p>xiggi and others who write in defence of 'handwriting'. your point is well taken, students today do need to know how to write by hand. but, do you at least concede that in today's world typing is far more essential than writing as a skill that all students need to know? if you did a study, you would probably find that typing ability and typing speed is an important predictor of future success in college, and better than handwriting. do you realize that nowhere in the admissions process does the system truly test people's ability to type? all the application materials, including the essays, could be handwritten or dictated and typed up by someone else for the applicant.</p>
<p>xiggi, your voluminous and admirable posts on the SAT would not have been possible if you had to write them out by hand! </p>
<p>sure, students need to have a LOT of minimum skills, and handwriting and doing mental arithmetic are among them. so also are speaking in public, drawing simple diagrams, reading maps, tying shoelaces, buttoning buttons, etc etc. but the college admissions process cannot, and does not try to screen and prioritize applicants on all those skills. It is only the most important skills- for example, reasoning ability, quantitative skills, and now, the ability to use language to express oneself (ergo the 'writing' test).</p>
<p>In the Dark Ages (when I was in high-school), success in typing class meant speed and ACCURACY. In current "keyboarding", correction is easy, not that there's anything wrong with that. I'd say speed AND accuracy while typingand on a laptopmight be a prime predictor of success. The former I've got in spades. God knows I can't do the latter worth a darn and I'm a supreme failure! ;)</p>
<p>xiggi - I can't believe I would ever disagree with you but here goes. In the Dark Ages, teachers used to rap kids' knuckles when they didn't make perfect letters and make them practice over and over again, often with limited success. Fortunately, researchers learned that our ability to write quickly and legibly is not related to practice alone but also to to our individual abilities or wiring (for the sake of simplicity here). So, instead of punishing students or discriminating against them, if they cannot write beautifully or quickly, we now let them demonstrate their knowledge in another way (keyboarding, oral responses to questions, etc). I suspect there are many students with handwriting issues who spent more time making their essay legible than on content - what kind of measure is that? I work in pediatrics - we are not all created with equal physical capabilities - we would not penalize someone with reduced vision, why with reduced fine motor skills? Some students are brilliant but have poor visual spatial skills, poor motor planning for writing, poor fine motor strength or skill, slower writing speed, etc. Why penalize them if they know the answer or if they CAN construct a readable essay but need more time? I know my brother-in-law, who has been the CEO of many corporations, can't write a legible sentence OR spell but he sure seems to have done ok despite that. I think of this as the "I can do it" ergo "everyone can and should do it" school of thought. It is rampant in educational systems. Predictor of success? I don't think so! The kids who took the Writing SAT II years ago were the kids who took SAT IIs to start with - a small, high achieving and self-selected group of students. The correlation with success in college for ALL students taking the new SAT has yet to be proven. I agree with the poster who asks - why one single measure of success? So now college admissions has nothing to do with four years of work, it comes down to one panicky 25 minute handwritten essay on an unknown prompt. Really, time to have all of our heads examined! BTW, my son did fine on the essay. I just think this is nuts.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So now college admissions has nothing to do with four years of work, it comes down to one panicky 25 minute handwritten essay on an unknown prompt.
[/quote]
Wait a second! That's quite a leap. There's a world between "we don't look at it" and "we consider it" to "it's the only thing we look at". I don't think there's a single school that even begins to consider the written essay as the be-all and end-all.</p>
<p>(And here in MA, we do have such a test - it's called the MCAS, which one must pass to graduate, regardless of grades or portfolio.)</p>
<p>Chedva - here in MA as well. Well, it is not leap if the essay is used to determine "authenticity" of voice from one essay to another. If the admissions officer believes there is another voice in the non-SAT essay, I think the intention is clear that you would not be accepted. </p>
<p>I am not a fan of the MCAS for numerous reasons and if yo uare from MA you know that it is highly controversial and not particularly geared to assuring success in college. It is, I believe, a better measure of whether or not the teacher taught to the MCAS. I don't think too many colleges would be impressed with the MCAS test results.</p>
<p>I'm also no fan of MCAS. Nor do I think that colleges are impressed. I was just using it as an example of a "single measure" type of situation.</p>
<p>I also have no problem with using the SAT essay to try to evaluate the writer's "voice", and I think it can be one piece of the puzzle. I don't think any admissions counselor worth his or her salt would simply compare a 25 minute essay to an essay that has been polished and say, "Oh, it's clear the kid didn't write this since the application essay is so much better." I think it's just one more piece of the puzzle.</p>