<p>More food for thought from Slate.com:</p>
<p>sandbox Keeping an eye on kids and parents.</p>
<p>Will Boys Be Boys?
Why the gender lens may not shed light on the latest educational crisis
by Ann Hulbert</p>
<p><a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2135243/nav/tap1/%5B/url%5D">http://www.slate.com/id/2135243/nav/tap1/</a></p>
<p>amen sister friend</p>
<p>Discipline, self-denial, delayed gratification...yeah, sounds like a gender-neutral recipe for success to me.</p>
<p>I have not seen the college data by subgroup. URM's, I believe tend to be more heavily weighted toward female. A look at predominately minority colleges shows some as high as 78% female (e.g. Chicago State University). If community colleges are included, the numbers are similar (Malcolm X College, 75% female). One wonders if the numbers are skewed by the large number of female minorities in college versus male. If this is the case, the issue may need to be characterized quite differently than has been suggested. The issue of the lack of minority males in college appears to be a much more serious problem that needs our attention.</p>
<p>
[quote]
That sounds, I know, like irresistible grist for an argument about whether and why girls might have an innate gift for just that kind of goody-goody, grindlike behavior, but let's not start it. It's a disservice to girls to portray them as destined for diligence, as though conscientious effort were a second-rate recourse for slower or steadier minds, rather than what is really is: a crucial choice that helps ensure long-term success.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>EXACTLY!</p>
<p>(Says Aries, who has certainly dated her share of men with the belief that her "work ethic" is her only recourse to an inferiour mind.)</p>
<p>Boys do less well overall in elementary school and high school, and fewer of them apply to college. In our upper middle class suburban neighborhood, girls get better grades as a group in everything. This has increased since a new element of "studious clas participation" has become part of the grading system. If my son were younger I would have sent him to a boys school. Sigh. By the way I have kids of both sexes.</p>
<p>Hey, is there any data showing affirmative action for boys at top competitive colleges? </p>
<p>It seems like this must be happening.</p>
<p>Does anyone oppose this? It would seem to be in society's interest.</p>
<p>Thank you Marite. I like it when someone writes something smart in the middle of less smart cultural noise....</p>
<p>
I think the answer to this must be, "highly unlikely." If you look at other threads about boys not doing as well academically, there are links to college board data about SAT distributions. While boys and girls have about the same average, I believe that boys are more likely to score at both extremes of a bell curve -- maybe someone has a link to the data. So if you assume that students accepted at top competitive colleges probably have high SAT scores, there are more than enough males to fill that slot. jmho.</p>
<p>It has been stated that some colleges make an extra effort to admit more men in order to achieve something closer to gender parity. This is particularly true of formerly all women's colleges that have gone co-ed. In this context, Vassar is usually mentioned. I can't recall if others have as well.</p>
<p>SJmom, you're right. I don't have statistical data at hand, but it is true that boys outnumber girls at the extremes. This is because several genes related to intelligence have been located on the X chromosome. Since girls have two X's, they are much less likely to be at either extreme, because the second X compensates. </p>
<p>I'm with Catherine: I'm a BIG fan of single sex education. It eliminates so many distractions and allows the schools to compensate for the general proclivities of both girls and boys. </p>
<p>In these studies, there are so many influences and components that cannot be filtered out. How about this: IMO, after having managed both men and women in administrative positions, there is no question that overall, women are more detail-oriented. This is a natural tendency that the author calls "grindlike behavior" (although I would not use this pejorative). But is it a coincidence that it is far easier to test for and assess these types of skills than it is to evaluate "big-picture" thinking? To test for arithmetic instead of spatial reasoning? To me this is a big reason why girls are graded higher than boys in coeducational schools.</p>
<p>PS: Please note that I am not saying that ALL boys are incapable of detail work and ALL girls are incapable of mastering group theory. Just don't go there, ok?</p>
<p>Wyogal, thanks for the info -- I'll try to find some links to the distribution data later. As far as your idea, "...overall, women are more detail-oriented", I'll just add one anecdote. Early in my career as a systems engineer, an older male (generally a good guy, by the way, not really a sexist type) gave me some advice. He said that, in his experience, the women he worked with were too focused at the detail level, and that it kept them from moving up the ladder. His opinion was also that the male engineers tended to see the big picture better, although they sometimes sloughed off the detail work. This higher level view enabled them to better understand the needs of the business. I'm also not trying to make a "men are better at this, women are better at that" type of statement. Just a story...</p>
<p>There is definitely some affirmative action for men, but the Ivies don't need it. They could fill their classes many times over with qualified applicants of either sex. It's when you go down a level or two that men might get a "tip", i.e. if you have two qualified applicants and you can't decide, take the guy.
Fewer guys apply to college because they are less likely to finish high school or to get as good grades. But I wonder what happens IN college. Do girls still get better grades, or not? I don't know.....</p>
<p>My impression is that the same trend is showing up in professionals schools too; the percentage of women has been increasing, I read somewhere, in Law, Business, and Medical schools.</p>
<p>My alma mater, to achieve gender parity, will give a tip to men. SAT scores aren't the whole story, and it's only on the very extremes that men outnumber women. Grades, essays and extracurriculars are very important - and women are outdoing men on those three things. I find it hard to believe that a few points on the SAT would really cancel those things out. </p>
<p>Over half of med school applicants are women. Law school is approaching 50-50 but has yet to break that barrier. </p>
<p>IMO, girls are taught to be detail-oriented from birth. Keep your room clean, play with dolls, write neatly, learn to spell well - and your brother can just be a guy. Unconscious discrimination abounds.</p>
<p>I don't buy this "genetic differences" garbage - mostly because I think like a guy but I was raised like one.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'd be curious to know what evidence Whitmire has of a new emphasis during the 1990s on a verbal curriculum.
[/quote]
Well, you can start with the current SATs - 2/3 reading and writing, 1/3 math. (Noted with chagrin by the father a boy who cruises to 800's on math tests but can't seem to break the 700 barrier in readin' or writin'.)</p>
<p>Ahem!</p>
<p>(Says the girl who tests better on math and had verbal part of PSAT knock her out of the running for National Merit.)</p>
<p>You NEVER hear anyone saying that men don't dominate journalism becaues they lack essential verbal and communication skills. Wait - maybe it's because men dominate the upper echelons of almost every industry in the country.... Maybe we ought to ditch the hypothesis of "men are better at math and women are better at reading" because it ain't playing out in the real world. Maybe there's something else going on - you know, that discrimination thing.</p>
<p>Aries--my S was knocked out of NMF because of his math score.</p>
<p>And your upbringing, I think, was similar to my D's--also not your typical "girl" type.</p>
<p>I wonder what raising a child like a "boy" means
I raised both my kids to pursue and explore their interests- just as our neighbor did theirs
yet my oldest put skirts on and made houses for matchbox cars, and brought out her little ponies to play with her friends transformers :)</p>
<p>In my place of business, there are some women at the upper levels but in the 20 years I have been at work the overwhelming number of women choose to leave when they get married. They are not getting fired and discriminated against as much as they are choosing to stay home. Now that we have more women college graduates I think you will find that highly educated women marry highly educated men and have the resources to drop out of the work force if they choose, and many do. In the 20 years I have been at my well known company only 2 women (of which I am one) have chosen to stay on in my department after childbirth. I have been amazed. It has not been discrimination - most of these women have husbands working for similar paychecks (someof thehusbands make less!) and either partner could have just as easily stayed home after maternity leave, but overwhelmingly the women are choosing to do this. In other fields I believe more women will stay in the workforce (medicine being one). I am a journalist, so there is no way you can start work on a story with a deadline and leave to pick up Justin at school.
It is unfair to say that if men are not doing as well in school, there is no discrimination, but if women are not doing as well at work overall (with many, many exceptions) it is all discrimination.</p>