Brandeis Waitlist vs Skidmore vs Delaware Honors vs others...I need help deciding!

Parents Forum
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<p>I need help deciding where to go. I am arguing about it with my family every day and need to know who is right. Here's my situation...</p>

<p>I am a hardworking student and got all A's (with an occasional B+) my whole life. I took 5 AP classes. I want to work hard in college and get the most out of the experience, academically. I'm not sure what I want to study yet; maybe psych or International Relations. I am not interested in partying. I did pretty badly on my SATs (710 math 610 cr 720 writing) because I was more concerned with schoolwork and didn't think SATs would be that important if I kept up good grades. I guess I was wrong.</p>

<p>Brandeis was my top choice. I was waitlisted. I want to do everything I can to get in and my guidance counselor said she would help if I could commit to attending. The other problem is the money.</p>

<p>I got money through a Tuition Exchange program through the college at which my mom works, so tuition at the places we are considering most becomes...
Brandeis: $40,000
Skidmore: $24,000
Delaware Honors Program: $11,000
SUNY Binghamton: $20,000
American University: $20,000</p>

<p>Clark and Sarah Lawrence are also cheap, and I would need to pay full tuition at George Washington, Vassar, Dickinson, Muhlenberg and NYU GSP.</p>

<p>My brother is 2 years younger than me and though they could hypothetically pay full tuition for me, but they dont want to because of him. </p>

<p>If I got into Brandeis, I would be willing to max out on loans and would hope I got need based financial aid once my EFC goes down when my brother attends college. This could help fill the gap between $25000 and $40000. My parents don't think its worth it, but they also may be discouraged about Brandeis because I haven't gotten in yet. All I want is to attend Brandeis if I get in.</p>

<p>So..is my thinking flawed? Again, I want to work hard and get the most out of my education. Where can I do this? Is there an alternative to Brandeis on my list? How do Skidmore and Delaware compare? This has been a very stressful time for me and my family and if you have read this far, I would greatly appreciate hearing ANY thoughts you have at all. Really. Anything will help. Thanks.</p>

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<p>First, your thinking is a bit flawed because right now, Brandeis is NOT an option. Basically you're on standby for Brandeis - you might get on the flight, but you may not. Focusing so heavily on that Brandeis standby ticket, however, may cause you to miss the other flights. So, you need to put Brandeis aside and choose from the tickets for the flights you DO have in hand right now, and stop worrying about Brandeis. If Brandeis calls you, you and your parents can reconsider at that point, but right now, just put it out of the equation as if it won't happen.</p>

<p>So, now, let's look at your other options. I would suggest you draw up a list of the top ten criteria you want in a college experience - be as specific as posslbe. One, obviously, is to be surrounded by peers who take learning seriously. It sounds like another is that you don't want to be surrounded by people who party. A third is obviously cost. It's up to you to come up with the other "top ten" criteria. Try to rank their importance to you from 1-10. </p>

<p>After you do that, I would suggest you sit back down and evaluate each college individually, not in comparison to the others, as to how they meet your criteria. NO school (including Brandeis, by the way) is going to be perfect at meeting individual criteria, but EVERY school has some strengths. Figure out what those strengths are in terms of the criteria that matter to you -- in other words, if there are lots of designer stores within walking distance of campus, but that's not a top 10 criteria for you, then it doesn't matter even if someone else sees it as a strength. Be realistic. If your parents won't pay for a school above a certain amount, it isn't an option any more than Brandeis is at this point, unless you can come up with an alternate funding plan. Don't focus on what you can't have, but on what you CAN have.</p>

<p>Finally, don't try to compare all of the schools to each other in a group. That's way too confusing and counterproductive. Instead sit down, and do a paired comparison, deciding which of the pair you would pick based on your criteria. In other words: choose between Skidmore/Sarah Lawrence, Skidmore/Delaware, Skidmore/Clark, Skidmore/American, etc. then do another group of pairings dropping out Skidmore. If a school in the pairings is consistently not the one you would pick, drop it out of the list. DO NOT include Brandeis in the pairings - that is not an option right now.</p>

<p>You have some wonderful college options, but no one here really can - or should - tell you where to go. But, if you focus just on what is possible, go back to your own most important criteria, evaluate each school individually, and then work through the paired comparisons, you should at least be able to narrow the list down considerably. It will be much easier to make a choice from there.</p>

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<p>I remember how much you wanted to go to Brandeis from earlier posts. You're really passionate about the school, I know. I wish they'd just taken you, as so many other schools saw fit to do! Your SAT's were fine for everywhere you applied, so don't berate your record; it's really fine. Some places simply get too many applicants, which is why they waitlisted and didn't reject you.
Brandeis is not everybody's first choice, however, so perhaps there will be movement up from the waitlist following May 1. </p>

<p>Surely your parents are as exhausted as you are. I'm sorry there's arguing. I am sure they are working on staying fair between the brothers. </p>

<p>If you could pin down that EFC hope for once you are both in college, that could be crucial to their viewpoint. We found that when our eldest was in college, there was an EFC, and when the next one (2 years younger) came along, the same EFC was just divided between the two colleges; no net loss or gain. It's still the same family. If he intends to go to a much less expensive place, that could be meaningful but if he, too, wants a private college, well,
they'd just be dividing up your family's resources so it's the same for them.</p>

<p>Be careful that you don't seem to sound as if you don't care about your brother!! I know that's not what you think, but parents are sensitive to be as fair as humanly possible between their kids. </p>

<p>In addition to expressing to your folks that you're ready to max out for student loans, can you offer up ANYTHING else to help the family? Have you discussed summers, for example. If I were you, I'd also be ready to sell a car (if you've been enjoying one this year); declare "no free internship summers from Brandeis" but instead 4 summers living at home working a merciless job or even 2 based on BEST SALARY (not how "interesting" it may sound). If you line up an at-home job (or 2 shifts, you're young and strong) starting around May 20 and work straight through until late August, how much more could you bring to the table. </p>

<p>Does your family have any regular luxuries they can do without? Such as an annual vacation? Many families really trim the sails when college bills start.
It's presumptuous for you to ask this, however, and could cause more arguments. But if you all work together, and maybe they cancel a cruise for $3K, and you try to work double shifts in the summer for $3K more, and you sell a car if you now use one and save the insurance...those are the kinds of sacrifices to get everybody filling a $15K gap. But first they have to get back to not arguing with you. </p>

<p>It sounds as though your GC is ready to make a persuasive phone call but doesn't want to be embarassed afterwards; if she fights and gets you in, then the family says "no" because of money, she looks bad for her ongoing relationship to Brandeis in the future. You can see her point of view. </p>

<p>Perhaps this weekend, you can end the arguing and push-pull between yourself and parents, so that by Monday everyone's on the same page and they feel more ready to support you IF the GC can get you in. </p>

<p>My brother went to Brandeis and paid the bucks there, then went to a very modestly priced law school, to pay it all back. That's another kind of approach. Most people say here, save on undergrad so you can go to a "great" grad school, but my family did it upside-down. We put our bucks into the undergrad educations and went for cheap-o grad schools so we could work for a living. Perhaps you haven't thoguht that far ahead, but if your folks are wondering "and what of grad school...?" well you can also decide if you'd be willing to compromise from a private/great/university type grad school to a state university that offers a graduate degree. </p>

<p>Other, please chime in.</p>

<p>Hopefulbob, my impression of you is truly a nice, sincere persob who had his heart set on one school, and yet did all the right things (applied everywhere else, kept his grades up, did well on SAT's...).</p>

<p>CAROLYN -- I also respect your advice. It's wise to sideline thinking about Brandeis to act on the real offers. BUT, I know that people do get in from waitlists and the GC seems ready to pounce on it, which is why I was urging him to multi-task.</p>

<p>H-Bob, please try to listen to us both, if you can do it. We're both right.</p>

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<p>I had a great education at Brandeis, but I hesitate to recommend that you stay on the waitlist, even though you are passionate about the school. That's because if you do get off the waitlist, you most likely won't get any aid. Meanwhile, you can get into some great alternatives at about half the cost.</p>

<p>My own recommendations would be either Skidmore or Sarah Lawrence.</p>

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<p>Hopeful - I sent you a PM on this topic.</p>

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<p>But if he gets in off the waitlist this year, i don't think he's anticipating any finaid from them until his brother gets into college 2 years from now, at which point he hopes the EFC will kick in at Brandeis. I can't imagine they'd hold a waitlist admission against him 2 years later.</p>

<p>The "tuition exchange plan" -- is that independent of financial need?</p>

<p>Anyway, keep trying to work all the fronts, I'd say.</p>

<p>I'll set an example, too. Although I'm rooting for you to work things out with your family so you can release the GC to go to bat for you to attend Brandeis...</p>

<p>looking at your accepted schools -- if you-all can AFFORD it (and somehow I think your parents let you apply to 5 costly schools, including NYU for heavens sake....so wait, now I'm totally confused. They're not eligible (yet) for financial aid. You were able to apply to 5 fullcost schools. </p>

<p>So I'm going to press forward AS IF money weren't of any issue to your family, since they let you apply all around.</p>

<p>In that case, Vassar is more like Brandeis than all the places on your list (residential LAC, plus it's fun to go where there are more girls than boys). But if you want the big city immersion and excellent courses in the areas you enjoy, NYU sounds good. After that, GW because of its WashingtonDC location (you like International Relations). </p>

<p>If cost weighs in, then Sarah Lawrence is good except that it empties out on weekends...but it empties into NYC (that costs money too, by the way).
My thought is if you'll miss Brandeis, don't go to Skidmore because it's just a pale comparison of it; instead choose a place with OTHER merits (such as Sarah Lawrence for its NYC access) so you can latch onto that as a "different but better" feature. SUNY Binghamton could work out okay if you're open to it; it's considered solid academically, but it's so isolated, idk. Maybe one lined up against the other American is more exciting than SUNY b/c of the location.</p>

<p>Keep posting.</p>

<p>Others chime in, please. This is a worthy young man.</p>

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<p>I don't think it's wise to anticipate finaid from a college that did not give finaid in the first place. The one way to get it after being admitted without would be to plead unexpected hardship. When the financial crisis hit in the 1990s, a lot of families that had been paying full fare went bankrupt. Some colleges (the best-endowed ones) bailed out the students. At most others, the students had to withdraw.</p>

<p>The scenario I anticipate is that the OP's family will have to continue paying full fare at Brandeis for all four years. It is possible that next year, the parents can apply for financial aid and the student will receive something; but it is not, in my experience, probable that they will. Finaid is usually restricted to first year applicants. Even when need-based, it's really used to entice admitted students to matriculate. There's less incentive to give finaid to a student who's already enrolled.</p>

<p>When the second child applies to colleges, he will apply for finaid, and the second college will take into account that there is a sibling already in college. </p>

<p>I could be wrong. Perhaps other posters will chime in.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
The "tuition exchange plan" -- is that independent of financial need?

[/quote]
Paying3tuitions, a "tuition exchange plan" is an employee benefit by which an employee of a participating college is able to send their child to selected, participating colleges for a specified reduced amount -- so it would be independent of need, as essentially the parent has earned the right through their employment. It does not preclude further need-based aid if the family is eligible. </p>

<p>I would NOT assume that the family had the money to send Hopefulbob to a full-tuition college --some of the colleges on Bob's list offer merit money, including Brandeis, and the family might have thought that he would be able to get that, or they may have thought they were entitled to more aid --the CSS Profile "Institutional Methodology" schools operate in a world of their own, and their determinations can be quite mysterious. </p>

<p>So I agree with Carolyn - Bob's options right now are limited to the schools that have accepted him and that his parents can afford.</p>

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<p>Now I'm not trying to bring his household into financial ruin, here. I just was mindful that he said his parents could hypothetically pay the full tuition at Brandeis were it not for his brother who'll come along 2 years later.
What he might need to know is whether the aid would kick in for the brother wherever the brother applies.
If they are borderline in need of FA, perhaps it would. SO IS THERE A SIMPLE WAY TO CALCULATE THAT, even tho the brother isn't yet on board?
That might open all of his options to consider all the schools that accepted him, including Gw, vassar, NYU, etc.
If they're not in borderline need of FA, then what IS the parents' issue here?
And why can't they release the GC to see if he can get admitted to Brandeis on Monday?
I'm sorry, but I jus don't see a differential of $15K per year as a stopsign when the family never was eligible for finaid, anywhere...</p>

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<p>I just noticed a thread in "other majors" discussing International Relations, discussing some of your schools.
Seems like GW and American are both in peoples' informal "top ten" lists, with some preferring American, some GW...</p>

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<p>What about U of Delaware? UDel is often an overlooked school. If you got into their Honors program and received $$$, you should reconsider. And if you're not a Delaware resident, the tuition is still reasonable in comparison to private colleges.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I just noticed a thread in "other majors" discussing International Relations, discussing some of your schools.
Seems like GW and American are both in peoples' informal "top ten" lists, with some preferring American, some GW...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I also noticed that the OP mentioned IR as one of the two majors he was thinking of pursuing. Of the schools that he listed as possibilities, it looks like GWU and American would have the strongest IR programs, plus the Washington DC location of both schools would give you some valuable access to internship opportunities, even during the school year listed. If it comes down to American vs. GWU, in this case---assuming money is a consideration---it looks like the annual cost difference(per the OP) between American($20,000) and GWU(full price, around $53,000) is quite significant, taken over the four undergrad. years. This is even more important if you plan on pursuing any kind of post-graduate education(Masters degree, Law School) after you receive your Bachelors. </p>

<p>Regarding Brandeis, if you decide to remain on the waitlist, then I wish you good luck. However, as others on this thread have mentioned, you shouldn't count on being admitted off of it and should go ahead and commit to another school by May 1. And even if you do get accepted off of the waitlist there may not be any fin. aid available. With that in mind-- and maybe its the parent in me--I would just caution you to think long and very hard before you decide to "max out" with student loans, once again, especially if you're considering going to grad. or law school on top of your undergraduate school. I've read and heard of so many instances where people end up taking out student loans (over the four years)of close to $100K or more and it really comes back to haunt them once they're out working, and trying to pay off that huge amount of debt from a typical post-college starting salary.</p>

<p>Brandeis is a great school and I can understand your desire to go there. I do wish you the best, wherever you end up going.:)</p>

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<p>As outsiders, who don't have the full story of this family's financial picture or his parents' reasoning, I think we need to be very cautious in giving advice here. Of course, we'd all LOVE to tell Bob he can go to Brandeis, and I'm sure he'd love to hear us say that, but it's not an option right now, and may not be even if he gets off the waitlist. So, while Bob should certainly speak with the FA office IF he gets off the waitlist, right now he has other important decisions to make. I think we should focus on those in order to help Bob best, rather than continue to discuss what isn't even an option at the moment.</p>

<p>Bob, Brandeis is a good school, but so are Sarah Lawrence, Skidmore, Binghamton, UDel, and American. So, Bob, let's hear a bit more about your top ten criteria in a college, and perhaps then we can give you some input about the options that are available to you right now.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry, but I jus don't see a differential of $15K per year as a stopsign when the family never was eligible for finaid, anywhere...>></p>

<p>Paying3Tuitions, I always enjoy your advice, and usually agree with you, but, as a parent "paying three tuitions" :), I know you also understand that each family makes its own decisions about what they can or are willing to pay. We don't know Bob's parents, we don't know their financial situation, we don't even know Bob's brother. What we might do ourselves or how we might view an extra $15,000 a year doesn't matter here. I'm sure that Bob's parents have thought about their own situation, and made the decision they think is best. Dismissing their judgement is probably not something we can or should do.</p>

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<p>P3T, Just re-read that last post and it sounded harsher than I meant it to. You are just trying to be helpful, and I appreciate that. Sorry if my wording came across wrong. :)</p>

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<p>No apology necessary. We're all trying to help, and the family if they read it all can glean what works for them.
If you thought you were a bit harsh towards me, meanwhile I reflected that I was a bit excitable towards Bob. Everybody cares which is what counts.</p>

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<p>Absolutely agree with your last statement P3T. Sometimes I wish that I could just pack up all of the great kids here and adopt them myself. But, that would mean paying way more than three tuitions. :)</p>

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<p>Actually, you all got me thinking. Under College Admissions, See my post number 15 on a thread by 6rings called "More Prestige NYU or UCLA"<br>
A different kind of family but I'm trying to consider costs and values more.</p>

<p>HopefulBob, if and when you feel up to it, please let us hear from you. We care.</p>

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<p>Thanks everyone for all your great advice. I am trying to pursuit the Brandeis waitlist while trying to understand which school to send a deposit to. Things have settled down with my parents. We visited Delaware, Skidmore and Sarah Lawrence over the weekend. I thought Delaware was too big and impersonal, Skidmore had pretty good academics, but is more focused on the arts, and Sarah Lawrence was too close to home (20 minutes away) and not enough of a new experience. I heard American was a party school and fear that Binghamton is too similar to Delaware. So in short, no option is perfect, but I guess we are leaning towards Skidmore. Also, my parents prought up NYU GSP and Vassar, and seem to be assessing them as possibilities, but havent yet said they would pay full tuition.</p>

<p>It is possible for us to pay the $50,000. I suggested selling my car and taking loans to help. I simplified the argument to going to Brandeis, selling our most expensive car and taking some loans ($20,000 max) or going to Skidmore. While my parents didn't like the idea, I think they see that if I get into Brandeis, they will have a serious issue on their hands. They are hoping I just get rejected, so that they won't have to choose between 1) sending me to my dream school while cutting down on expenses and leaving our ability to pay for my brother's education in question, or 2)sending me to a place we forced ourselves to like. I believe my brother will have more options than me (he did very well on his psats) and will get merit aid to a good school, and if not, paying for him will never be impossible because we would get need based aid. It is hard for me to see his situation being worse than mine. The main problem is that I can't recruit my guidance counselor to fight for me because my parents don't want it to get to the point where they may be forced to pay. Would it be pointless or harmful if my guidance counselor called and said I'm a good student, I really like Brandeis, but my parents aren't sure if they want to pay? can she just leave the part about attending if admitted out? Also, might I be able to ask Brandeis about aid if I get in?</p>

<p>So I know I seem to be focused on Brandeis and my chances may be very slim, but I looked at my possible options the whole weekend and haven't fallen in love with anything. I have a week left and will seriously compare and consider each one. </p>

<p>I really appreciate all your advice and will listen to all of your suggestions (even if what I wrote doesn't suggest it). I know Brandeis isn't an option right now, but I need to pursuit the waitlist to the end before I can come to terms with attending somewhere else. When I know Brandeis is 100% impossible, I think I will come to like one of the other schools much more. I don't know why..I just cant give up so soon. I worked too hard to give up now.
My guidance counselor asked me to speak to her after visiting the schools, so I will try to do that tomorow. I will talk to her about what we discussed here. I might also show her a letter I'm working on to Brandeis - might anyone here want to read it? (its only a letter, dont think I'm crazy and obsessed, I'm just trying everything and I'm still thinking seriously about my other options.) Now, I will continue to scrutinize my choice of Skidmore and compare it to everything else.</p>

<p>Carolyn-here is my top criteria. I guess it's in order, but the order isnt extremely important
My ideal college would:
make me work very hard, but would allow me to do very well
have courses in every field since I’m mostly undecided
have politically oriented students
have great, caring, approachable professors
be 2-4 hours away from home (I live in Westchester, NY)
have an active Hillel that wouldnt turn me into an orthodox Jew, Hebrew courses and study abroad programs
have a diverse student body
have small classes
have little drinking/partying
be close to, but not necessarily in a nice, large town
I may be forgetting something important, but for now, I guess that's it.</p>

<p>Again, you all are great and I thank you for caring and for helping so much!</p>

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<p>Talk to your GC about getting you off the waitlist at Brandeis but also put down a deposit at one of the schools.</p>

<p>If you like Vassar, don't worry about it's being only 20 minutes away from home. Campus life is very different from living at home while attending high school. It is really another world.</p>

<p>As for your brother, do take into account that he may not get any NM scholarship (mine did not, despite stellar stats) or merit scholarship. You just cannot bank on it. If he does get a merit scholarship, or need-based aid, it may not be sufficient. What colleges consider adequate and what families consider adequate are often not the same thing. Remember, too, that some of the savings you can achieve are a one-time thing. The cost of attendance will rise (about 4-5% annually) throughout the 4 years. What you can do is to expect to earn some money working during the school year and during term time, perhaps around $7-8k (but do factor in the cost of books, entertainment, transport) and so on.
So be realistic about your ability to pay. Even the dream school may not be so wonderful if you have to work all the time in order to attend it.</p>