<p>It seems to me that the ED agreement is indeed a binding contract, because it is a signed agreement with "consideration" on both sides--that is, both sides agree to do or refrain from doing something in exchange for the other's undertaking. The college agrees to consider the applicant early, and the applicant agrees to go there if accepted. I would say that if the applicant violates the agreement, the college could sue for damages (which would be pretty minimal), but why would they? It would be much more effective to simply inform other colleges of the student's action, probably resulting in the rescinding of offers from any of those schools that also have ED. Of course, a college could choose not to do anything, and KK seems to think that's a common reaction, but it doesn't have to be, at least legally.</p>
<p>
[quote]
In this way, it is similar to many colleges' early decision programs. Early decision, however, is a binding commitment to enroll; that is, if accepted under an early decision program, the applicant must withdraw all other applications and enroll at that institution. Thus, early decision does not allow applicants to apply to more than one early decision school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Action%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Action</a></p>
<p>
[quote]
Students admitted under Early Decision may be released from the commitment to enroll at Northwestern only for financial reasons.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>That should put an end to the all the debate...</p>
<p>Not really.... Consider what a Johns Hopkins admissions official said....</p>
<p>"Early Decision is not a legal contract, it is a moral and ethical agreement,"</p>
<p>Also... "financial reasons".... huh? So, ANY amount of financial aid can be seen to the student as unsatisfactory, can it not?</p>
<p>
[quote]
“All schools require second semester updates from your guidance counselor with first semester grades. Many high schools check with your ED school to determine if you were accepted (and many colleges send that info to the guidance counselors). In those schools, the GC simply doesn't send your first semester transcript to your non-ED schools (at least for EDI). And some, for EDII schools, don't send out the transcripts until the EDII decision was made.”</p>
<p>
[quote]
-I don't know what kind of school YOU attend/ed, but my high school doesn’t allow guidance counselors to withhold transcripts from students. In fact, I think it may be the LAW in my city/state that a school MUST provide students with transcripts if they ask for them, so all this talk about only having one option for college is pretty ridiculous.
[/quote]
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While yes, while your GC can give your the student a copy of your transcript, CHedva is correct that any counselor who wants to maintain relationships with a college and keep their professional integrity in tact will not send out a copy of the school transcript or complete the the counselor evaluation for a student that has been accepted to another school ED (unless they show proof from the ED school that they have been released from the contract)</p>
<p>KK (putting on my GC hat now)</p>
<p>Keep in mind that GCs are also part of professional organizations and must abide by the code of ethics for those organizations. Many at minimum are members of the ACA (american counseling association) and the ASCA (american school counselors association) some that also handle the college counseling piece are members of the NACAC (the national association of college admissions counselors), any of which can bring a counselor up on ethics violations subject to having their license pulled. Most of the time it does not go this far as it is easier for the college to kind of sever professonal ties with that counselor because their integrity has become questionable.</p>
<p>Because GCs are also responsible for reporting the college admissions results to their APs or Principals, a GC who gets a complaint from a college because of the way they handled an ED situation will definitely be written up by their AP/Principal which then would result in a U rating.</p>
<p>The Joint Statement for Candidates on Common Ivy Group Admission Procedure
states:
[quote]
</p>
<p>Under December Notification, an applicant may be notified that he or she has been granted or denied admission or that a final decision has been deferred until the early April notification date. Two plans are offered according to individual institutional policy:</p>
<p>a. The College Board-approved Early Decision Plan, which is offered by Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, the University of Pennsylvania and Princeton, requires a prior commitment to matriculate; thus a student may not file more than one Early Decision application among these or any other institutions. </p>
<p>Financial aid awards for those qualifying for financial assistance will normally be announced in full detail at the same time as the admission decisions. An applicant receiving admission and an adequate financial award under the Early Decision Plan will be required to accept that offer of admission and withdraw all applications to other colleges or
universities.</p>
<p>*l Ivy institutions will honor any required commitment to matriculate which has been made to another college under this plan. *
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The world of regional admissions officers and the GC at the schools in their territory is really a very small one where everyone knows everyone else. ( I remember meeting up and talking to a regional admissions person professionally who remembered me personally when my D was admitted to their school in 2004).</p>
<p>"Students rarely break their early-decision commitments. Officials of several elite colleges say that at most, two or three applicants pull out each year, usually for financial reasons. While an early-decision contract between a student and a college is "legally binding and enforceable, it isn't practicable," says Sheldon E. Steinbach, vice president and general counsel at the American Council on Education. Most colleges wouldn't even think of suing a student who backs out of an agreement, according to the general counsels at several Ivy League colleges.</p>
<p>Another possibility is that one college could sue another over a student.</p>
<p>"Technically, if a student decides to go somewhere else, the institution could respond with a lawsuit for tortious interference with a contractual relationship," Mr. Steinbach says. That scenario also is unlikely, however, since colleges typically don't drag each other into court."</p>
<p>"An applicant receiving admission and an ADEQUATE financial award under the Early Decision Plan will be required to accept that offer of admission and withdraw all applications to other colleges or
universities."</p>
<p>What is 'adequate'? Is it not up to the applicant to decide this? As such, can not any financial award be seen as 'inadequate'?</p>
<p>KK,</p>
<p>You are absolutely right. It does not benefit the college to sue over a student, especially when it is so much easier not to accept any other students from that high school (where they do not have to give a reason for the rejection).</p>
<p>
[quote]
What is 'adequate'? Is it not up to the applicant to decide this? As such, can not any financial award be seen as 'inadequate'?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>the college's financial aid office determines what is adequate based in the income and the assets of the student and his or her parents (and in some cases stepparents). FA is is not based on what a family wants to, is only willing to or feels that they can only afford to pay.</p>
<p>kk, looks like you've changed your position on this :)</p>
<p>Sybbie, I highly doubt a college will take revenge on a high school's students because one student decided not to honor his ED agreement. That would be plain foolish and immature. However, the moral of the story is this, don't apply ED if you have any reservations. It is not worth risking 4 years of hard work.</p>
<p>"the college's financial aid office determines what is adequate based in the income and the assets of the student and his or her parents (and in some cases stepparents). FA is is not based on what a family wants to, is only willing to or feels that they can only afford to pay."</p>
<p>-See, this doesn't make much sense. If this is true, then what incentive does a college have for giving grants to ED students? Wouldn't it make more sense to give most ED applicants nothing but loans? </p>
<p>If that statement is true, then a college now has the power to 'force' a student to enter debt (and a large amount at that). This just doesn't make any sense. If a college decides that a student's need is $0, does that student now have to come up with $50,000 out of thin air?</p>
<p>Moreover, why would there be a clause in this agreement that deals with 'adequate' financial aid if ONLY the college is allowed to decide what is 'adequate'? By that reasoning, a college could give a student only enough money for transportation, and the student would STILL have to attend the school....Further, the clause should say that students can only be released from ED agreements if "a college says so", and not if aid is inadequate.</p>
<p>"kk, looks like you've changed your position on this"</p>
<p>-I haven't. I still contend that ED agreements are not legally binding, and even if they were, they are not enforceable.</p>
<p>"don't apply ED if you have any reservations."</p>
<p>-I agree with this. I, however, also believe that if you have applied ED and things have changed, you don't HAVE to attend the school if it accepts you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sybbie, I highly doubt a college will take revenge on a high school's students because one prick decided not to honor his ED agreement.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Fred,</p>
<p>I know a lot of people on both sides of the table (admissions people and counselors) from over 15 years working with students and the college process.</p>
<p>Everyone is human. Have you ever had anyone do anything that was kind of slimy to you and it changed how you viewed that person? Have you been mistreated by a business and ever said you will never purchase anything from them again and meant it. The same thing happens with admissions people (they are not particulary "feeling' a certain counselor from a school, because they don't believe anything they have to say).</p>
<p>kk, I will grant you that the contract may not be "legally binding" in that the college may not be able to sue to make the student attend. However, that does not mean that the college has no recourse, as has been demonstrated a number of times in this thread. </p>
<p>You don't want to believe that; that's fine. But you might as well not try to browbeat us into believing that you're right - because you're not.</p>
<p>I volunteeer in the college planning office of my sons' high school and have for 4 years. I've observed a lot over this span of time. </p>
<p>Most high school guidance counselors take the commitment to ED quite seriously. I know that the ones at our school do.</p>
<p>If you apply ED and are accepted, the counselor generally will not send any further information for a student to other colleges unless you are released from your ED commitment by the school in question.</p>
<p>While the counselor will be glad to supply you, the student, with a copy of your transcript, the counselor will not send other schools the certified, signed and stamped official copies of your transcript as is required. Nor will they send the certification of graduation.</p>
<p>Most admissions offices of selective schools are wise to students who are trying to get around the ED commitment--submitting a non-certified transcript on your own is a giant, blinking red flag (you won't be the first to try this ruse). The first thing they do is throw it in the circular filing cabinet under the desk. Then either the student's application file sits uncomplete (and unconsidered) or the admissions office calls the high school guidance office to find out why they received an unofficial transcript. I've seen it happen. The results are generally not what the student was aiming for.</p>
<p>It's not that the school guidance counselor is trying to screw the student--it's just that the guidance counselor is interested in ALL of the students and not just the one who wants to have it all ways in his/her favor. If a student from a particular high school is admitted ED to XXX Selective College, and breaks the commitment "just because" , the next time students apply to XXX Selective College from that high school they will be screwed because the college will realize that an ED commitment from that high school means nothing.</p>
<p>At our high school the counselor will usually sit down with a student interested in applying to a school ED and make sure that the student fully understands the implications of the choice. Every year there are one or two students who want to game the system. Two years ago there was one student so obnoxious about the whole thing that the counselor actually maked the student down on the recommendation form for having questionable ethics.</p>
<p>It is the counselor's interest to protect his or her own integrity and the reputation of the high school. The counselor truly wants to help each individual student, but will not sacrifice all students' chances for one student's selfishness.</p>
<p>KK,</p>
<p>At some level the college holds all the cards. While students think they are on the upside of the power dynamic, they really are not. This is why many parents have stated if money is remotely an issue, DO NOT apply ED (you are basically saying that no matter what they offer you, you will attend).</p>
<p>
[quote]
If that statement is true, then a college now has the power to 'force' a student to enter debt (and a large amount at that). This just doesn't make any sense. If a college decides that a student's need is $0, does that student now have to come up with $50,000 out of thin air?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I post a lot on the FA site I an tell students/parents all of the time to run your numbers through the FA calculators using both the institutional and the federal methodologies because the only thing the FAFSA does is determine your eligiblity for federal aid (PELL, SEOG, Stafford & perkins loans). Most fafsa only schools do not meet 100% of demonstrated need or will meet your needs using loans (Loans are considered FA). Most schools with $$ (northwestern, the Ivies, elite LACs and others who meet 100% demonstrated need with large amounsts of grant aid will use the CSS Profile or their own FA form in addition to the FAFSA. With the profile, they ask for everyone's income and assets (non-custodial parents, & stepparents). They look at home equity (yes some people are cash poor but house rich and this could severely limit the amount of FA they receive)
Yes, the college would expect you to take out a home equity loan, liquidate some of your assets to pay for your child's education.</p>
<p>ED also limits you from comparing other packages. I know when my D applied to college she applied to 7 need blind, meet 100% demonstrated need using large amounts of grant aid. There was a $12,000 spread between the "best" and the "worst" package and each school got the same information.</p>
<p>BoysX3,</p>
<p>great post!!!!</p>
<p>"However, that does not mean that the college has no recourse, as has been demonstrated a number of times in this thread."</p>
<p>-I'm not disagreeing with this. It is, however, a big stretch to say that a student will be left with 'no colleges' to attend. This is just silly. Like I've said, can a school share info with its peers? Sure it can. Does this mean that a student will have NO school to attend? Absolutely not. </p>
<p>"But you might as well not try to browbeat us into believing that you're right - because you're not."</p>
<p>-I don't have to browbeat anyone. You have your beliefs and I have mine. I'm providing evidence for what I'm saying, you, on the other hand, are trying to attack me instead of backing up your claims. If you have to resort to those kinds of arguments, then so be it.</p>
<p>Well, if the GC doesn't send the transcripts, the student won't be admitted to any other colleges, now will she?</p>
<p>And I haven't seen any "evidence" presented by you - all I've seen is "it's silly" and "I don't believe it." While the adults on the board are giving you information based on what we have in fact witnessed.</p>
<p>If I've missed your evidence, I apologize - if you could restate it succinctly, I'd like to take a look at it.</p>
<p>What ever happened to that Calculus guy.</p>
<p>I've heard many stories about people being blacklisted, but my original question was about the extent of the early decision blacklist and how such a huge bureacracy of keeping track of ed applicants could function. </p>
<p>I actually dont plan to break ed, but ive often wondered how colleges which compete with eachother organize a blacklist, and how far the blacklist reaches. </p>
<p>If someone got blacklisted only from the ivy league but could still go to MIT, I guess the blacklist doesn't even reach all the best universities, let alone all 4-year colleges in the region or country. Even though I wouldn't break ed, in terms of ethics, I say screw the colleges. Say you are not rich and get accepted ed to Brown with no financial aid and later learn you could get full scholarship at Cornell. Brown could say you can't back out.</p>
<p>There is no contract the colleges sign to act ethically with ed applicants if this were to happen, not to mention that the very existence of ed is biased towards the rich, and therefore, if not what you would call unethical, very much against the morals of equality.</p>
<p>I think the most important question is: Do you really want to be known as the slimeball who would do this? </p>
<p>Say you could have cheated on every test in high school and gotten straight "A"s as a result, and would get accepted into Harvard. Would you really want to do this? Honestly, if you want to be this slimeball, then go ahead, but I really question your morals if you break a signed agreement. </p>
<p>Moreover, you're shooting yourself in the foot. You risk the possibility that all the colleges you are applying to will find out about your ED double application and will not offer you acceptance/will rescind your acceptance. If ivy-level colleges see one little slip up like this, you wont get accepted unless there's a damn good reason for it(which there isn't in your case).</p>
<p>I stated it in another thread and I'll state it again - kk19131 rarely makes points and supports it with concrete information. Rather, he/she will throw out something and try to make it stand with logical arguments, logical fallacies and wordplay. Here he states nobody else has proof, yet has none himself. </p>
<p>He says that technically, colleges can't MAKE you go to X school. True! They can't drag you in chains to their campus. But colleges do have other options.</p>
<p>If you had somehow managed to apply to other schools despite your ED commitment, and got into some of them. Great for you - except if you back out of your ED school under suspicious circumstances some schools will actively seek out the other schools and inform them of this fact (Not that much effort considering it happens maybe 1-2 a year max at any given school). Why would they do this? Simple: Quid pro quo.</p>
<p>And in response to what you said earlier, that the student can claim any package is "inadequate," that's true. But if your family is making 200k a year and the college is only making you pay 20k a year through merit scholarships, they're sure as hell not going to believe you when you back out because of "financial concerns." Remember that these schools DO have your financial information.</p>