<p>mom60, thanks for the information.</p>
<p>Those stats (as well as the student's description) are similar to my daughter's. She was accepted at all three Arizona schools (Northern Arizona University, Arizona State and University of Arizona) and all of the Cal States to which she applied except SDSU (Chico, Humboldt, Sonoma and Long Beach). I have a particular fondness for the CSU system and did enough research to feel any of those schools would have been good for my daughter. She, on the other hand, fell head over heels in love with ASU, she will be a Sun Devil come fall, and we (my husband and I) could not be more pleased with her choice and how well she and we have been informed and treated by ASU.</p>
<p>If she really is an underachiever (and I agree with some here that her SAT scores wouldn't necessarily suggest that) then I would NOT send her to a school where she is likely to become submerged in the party scene. She would be better off at a school that notices if she is not in class and where professors get to know kids.</p>
<p>Evergreen State is an interesting choice. Many kids who go there completely unmotivated come out the other side absolutely turned on about learning.</p>
<p>If she's really an underachiever, I think she should take some time off. I think it might help her see why working a little harder might be worth it.</p>
<p>To be honest, if the student is really an underachiever and just not motivated academically at this time, sending her to a small school is more likely to drive her even further away from academics than a school with plenty of options. When she's away from the parents, running her own life, I don't think you'll be able to force her to work hard in school unless she really wants to.</p>
<p>The party scene is definately present at almost any larger school, but if the student wishes, it can easily be avoided.</p>
<p>All of the arizona schools do have a party scene (what uni doesn't?), but they all also have very academic people who are looking for an affordable but still fairly prestigious education. Just to reiterate, if the student really focuses and gets into the ASU business college, participates in some business clubs of which we have over 30, and gets some internships, she'll be well on the road to success if she's motivated.</p>
<p>If you're considering the other arizona schools, the basic breakdown is that U of A has an advantage in the areas of science, mathematics, and medicine; ASU has great business, engineering, and journalism schools; NAU is weaker academically than the other two, and mostly appeals to students seeking the smaller college feel, cold weather, and snow, however it does have good nursing and education programs.</p>
<p>BusinessGuy:</p>
<p>I simply could not disagree with you more that sending someone to a small school is likely to drive him/her farther away from academics than sending the same person to a large school. I'm a semi-retired clinical psychologist and I specialize in pre-adolescents, adolescents, and young adults. My experience (and what little research there is) tends to suggest that reality is exactly the opposite.</p>
<p>First off, I don't know this girl, but there are some clues. She is a "party" girl, she has about average achievement, and she is thinking of majoring in business. My experience with many kids who are thinking of majoring in business is that they have no idea what they like or what they want. "Business" just seems like a good way to punch a ticket and get a decent job (maybe). My experience with average achievers in large high schools who tend to be partiers is that they very often are looking to peers to bolster self-esteem, and that is very dangerous.</p>
<p>Now, understand that these are just clues. This girl's reality may be quite different, but the clues tell me that there is cause for caution and care in choosing a college.</p>
<p>My experience with kids and young adults is that the single most important factor in actually graduating from college is the strength ("thickness" if you prefer) of the culture of that college. Strength comes in two ways: strengths that help people graduate and strengths that hinder graduation. Large schools tend to be strong in student body diversity; that is, you can find a group interested in just about anything. Partiers, unfortunately, can find a peer group that does practically nothing but party. Sadly, many of the kids in that group fail to graduate unless they have substantial talent advantages over the others at a particular school.</p>
<p>There are other schools where the most "cool" thing you can do is be seen in the subbasement of the library. Those schools tend to graduate a large percentage of students, and graduate them on time (four years). </p>
<p>Here are the graduation stats for the Arizona schools:</p>
<p>ASU: 4-year graduation 27%; 6-year graduation 55%
U of A: 4-year graduation 32%; 6-year graduation 58%
N. AZ: 4- year graduation 26%; 6-year graduation 48%</p>
<p>The median SATs for these schools are:</p>
<p>ASU: 1108
UofA: 1115
N AZ: 986</p>
<p>This young lady might not even be admitted to any of the AZ schools except N. AZ, and her odds of graduation from there are less than 50% (and as a partier, I'd suggest they're substantially less than that). They're not much higher at the other two schools where her SAT scores would be more than 100 points below the median.</p>
<p>I don't know why you think small schools have fewer options than large ones. While it's true that a small school might not offer a course in ancient Sumerian, that's generally not a big factor for most kids. Large schools offer classes on more obscure topics, but the small schools offer the same basics, usually in smaller classes taught by real professors (instead of TAs) who tend to be less concerned with research and more concerned with teaching. Are there partiers at LACs? Sure, at most of them. But it's not nearly as easy at a LAC to blow off classes because you're hungover, and you will find that the vast majority of LACs have MUCH better 4- and 6-year graduation rate than large universities (outside the really elite universities).</p>
<p>So, if it were my child (or my client), I would strongly urge careful consideration of the culture of the school she is planning to attend and, most importantly, the graduation rates. If she wants to major in business, she can find LACs with 5 and 6-year programs in economics/business that leave her with an MBA at the end. Or she can simply major in economics which tends to serve as a surrogate for a business degree for many entry level jobs. </p>
<p>There is a problem here, though, in that she wants to stay in the CA/AZ area. The region is, unfortunately, LAC poor except for a few elite or semi-elite institutions. If she were willing to look East, or even to the South, her parents would find many options that are more likely to actually produce a degree for this young lady. For instance, Longwood University in Virginia is a state school (and mostly a LAC), has an average SAT score of 1078, and graduates 48% in four years and 62% in six. That's just one example, but those are much better odds than I would give her at any of the large AZ schools.</p>
<p>the list of impacted programs in the CSU system is constantly changing. despite what some posters say there is NO CSU campus that is totally impacted in every major. that said, some of the most popular and highly ranked campuses, (SLO, san diego, long beach, pomona) have more impacted programs and tougher admit rates than the less popular ones such as east bay, dominguez hills and bakersfield.</p>
<p>if you are attracted to a particular program that is impacted you can take your chances by getting accepted into another major and then win the faculty's support in the major of your choice. just work your butt off, be sincere and take the time to wow your targeted professors.</p>
<p>with respect to admissions criteria it is true that some programs are much easier to get into than others. on the cal poly campuses, for example, students who cannot get accepted into business can slide in via ag bus admits and then try to migrate over.</p>
<p>finally, admissions will be different depending upon where you live. not just what state but also what region. each of the 23 CSUs has a designated "service area." so if you live in lakewood you have a better chance of getting into long beach state. if you live in santa maria your chances improve for SLO.</p>
<p>If she's a party girl and underachiever, she simply may not yet be ready for college, and instead of her parents expecting college to turn her around, if she's not really interested or ready, it probably would be better for her to take a productive gap year or two.</p>
<p>Doing something like an Americorps program or even working a fulltime ordinary job (while also paying rent, cell phone bill, car costs, etc while living at home) will help her learn more about the working world and her own interests as well as the value of a college education or pursuing vocational education in a field that interests her.</p>
<p>Note: The gap year will only help her face those issues if her parents expect her to work fulltime and also pay for rent, board, etc. even if living at home. If she works parttime or works fulltime without paying rent, she'll simply get an unrealistic idea of how comfortably she can live on minimum wage. That won't lead to any incentive for her getting serious about furthering her education or finding a vocation that will support her.</p>
<p>Tarhunt:</p>
<p>You presented some interesting stats on those three Az schools (I'm assuming there's nothing unique about Az here and that the similar results would apply to similar colleges elsewhere). I suspect that part of the equation might be that the lower the selectivity of the college, the lower the graduation rate would be. There may also be a correlation to the size of the college as you indicate. Since you've already sone at least some research on this, do you have similar metrics on small LACs that have a similar level of admissions selectivity?</p>
<p>Whittier College would be a good bet. Smaller school, nice business program, a step above other schools with similar admissions profiles. </p>
<p>I'd also take a look at Cal State Monterrey Bay - their unique curriculum plan might appeal to someone who hasn't quite been a fan of school. </p>
<p>And, I strongly agree with LaLady: Arizona State would be a good fit as well.</p>
<p>Most WUE programs want GPAs north of hers though.</p>
<p>I was wondering why you thought she was a bright underachiever? Her grades and test scores and curriculum rigor seem to indicate she's an average kid. If she's a late bloomer a Cal State or a CC would give her room to grow.</p>
<p>Tarhunt:</p>
<p>The reason I said what I did concerning large schools, is that many students can and will slack, party, drop out, or do horribly no matter where they go. The deciding factor is motivation; so the whole time I'm going under the impression that in college she'll be prepared to "get down to business" (no pun intended!) rather than party. Of course there will be a large sector of party kids, but as I said, she can easily avoid that if she makes the effort. Similarly, even at a LAC, unless her parents force her to go to a school out in the middle of nowhere without any transportation or large cities nearby, a student who isn't interested in an education, won't get one.</p>
<p>I agree with Northstarmom about a possible gap year, she could go into the real world and understand how difficult it is to make a decent living, and that having fun all of the time ends in high school. </p>
<p>Concerning the business field: it's often the largest major in colleges since it can be very broad, and students who don't really have an idea what they're going to do can get a pretty general education. Now, at Arizona State, the business college is actually moving towards much higher standards. To be guaranteed admission for when you become a junior you need at least a 1250 SAT (math and verbal), and the rest have to go through a competitive application process. Basically, the ones who are just slacking and don't have any idea what they're going to do, won't be getting into the business school. Students without a great high school record still have a chance if they work hard during the first 2 years of college however. </p>
<p>I can definately see where you're coming from tarhunt, especially as an expert in the area, but I think you're looking at it more from a parent's perspective, than from the student's. I'd be more concerned with getting her the right attitude so she can do well in college, rather than just putting her somewhere that you hope she'll just accept academic environment rather than rebel. If she has the right attitude, she can do amazing anywhere.</p>