Britney Spears in Court

Family members struggle with this a lot. The issue is that a full 50% of people with severe mental illness believe that they are not ill. That belief is PART OF THEIR ILLNESS and called anosognosia (I still have trouble remembering the word even though I teach about it in NAMI classes!). Here is a link talking about it:

Anosognosia

So even though people are adults, they can be incapable of taking care of themselves if they believe they are not ill and do not get proper treatment. This is the question I get asked most as a teacher, “How can I get my loved one help when she doesn’t think she needs it?” My sister is actually going through this with someone in her husband’s family. It stinks.

Maine, just last month, FINALLY passed a law to make it easier to hold someone involuntarily if they are clearly ill. Family members have been begging for this for years. Some of them had children they fought unsuccessfully to get committed, and those kids went on to commit violent acts or suicide. Every time the bill came up for debate, consumers (the correct word for mentally ill people in this context) would argue that it violated their rights. When they would testify, you’d think, “Well, obviously THEY should never be committed against their will, they’re obviously capable of taking care of themselves!” But as I explained in my earlier post, it’s possible those same people could decompensate the next week and NEED hospitalization.

I can’t emphasize enough that someone who has not gone through this with a family member cannot understand what it’s like. I even had a social worker berate me for not bringing my son to the ER sooner one time: “Mom, you know, you could bring your son in sooner next time, before he got to this point
” I almost blew up. DS still lived at home with us, and I watched him constantly. Just two days before, his psychiatrist had seen him and said he was doing great. The next thing I knew, DS was channeling Abraham Lincoln. Another time, DS went catatonic WHILE IN HIS DOCTOR’S OFFICE. The doctor said that was a first. The experience is heartbreaking and indescribable, especially considering that he was studying biomedical engineering and getting As when he fell ill. :frowning:

Schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, and major depressive order are horrible, horrible diseases. Family members are just begging to be given the chance to take care of their loved ones. It is far MORE common for families to abandon their loved ones, so we should be thankful when families step up. (When I asked my son’s housing staff when they hadn’t told me about the state rule that residents can be gone no more than 14 days a year, I was told that it had never come up - family members don’t take their loved ones home for visits very often).

And yes, I’m sure that occasionally a family member doesn’t have the best interests of the ill person in mind. That’s why we have judges to decide these matters. I have no idea where the truth lies in Britney’s case, but I trust the judge to make the right decision.

We DID listen to our son when he said he didn’t want to live at home anymore, even though we were skeptical how it would go. To our surprise, a local group runs quite a few homes in our area, so DS lives in an apartment with 24/7 staff in an upstairs office. We do whatever we can to foster his independence. But if it comes to having to commit him involuntarily for the safety of himself AND OTHERS, we will do it.

If he asked that someone else be his guardian, we would be open to the idea if we trusted the person and he or she were willing to take on the daunting job. It’s not for the faint of heart. Even without being his guardian, I spend a good bit of time every week making sure my son is getting the support he needs. My latest success was getting him into the Meals on Wheels program, since recently all he had been eating, and I do mean literally, was Campbell’s Soup and smoothies. I have to call MoW every week to order meals for him. That’s just one small example. It’s endless.

I’m sorry, I’ll get off my soapbox now. It’s just that every time I teach a NAMI class, I hear more heartbreaking stories about loved ones trying to get their kids the help they need. There’s usually not a lot of assistance I can offer.

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I believe we don’t know the whole story. I was a law clerk in a courtroom where the state was trying to have a woman committed because, when she went off her medication, she did crazy things and was a danger to herself. Problem was during the trial, she was ON her medication. She appeared okay. Her son, who seemed to have the same issues as his mother, swore he’d take care of her. Jury really had no choice but to not commit her because at the time, she was okay. We all knew this wouldn’t last, but that’s not the standard.

What I don’t understand is that some reports are that Brit wanted her father OFF her case while others say she was trying to add a professional conservator and the judge didn’t allow that. Even if she still needs a conservator, why should it be her father? She clearly doesn’t want HIM, so why can’t it be someone else?

I don’t think she was being informed of all her options. Apparently she is now moving to have him replaced. I agree, even if she needs someone, it doesn’t have to be him. She’s obviously capable of handling many other parts of her life and providing for herself. It’s way past time the adult gets to be an adult.

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If there is more to the story than we know, as some have stated, why can’t the conservator be someone else—her father and his attorney seem to have their own interests in mind as opposed to the client’s. They should bet an impartial third party.

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Here is an interesting timeline of events thus far:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/22/entertainment/britney-spears-conservatorship-timeline/index.html

James (Jamie ) Spears has had alcohol issues in the past as well as a restraining order filed by Britney’s ex (Kevin Federline). In addition, there is no record of him having paid employment for 2 decades. In other words - he is using this situation to enrich HIMSELF. I find it hard to believe that he is in this for Britney.

And 
she is an adult. She may/may not still have issues but she should be free to make her own decisions regarding her money and her reproductive choices.

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She seems capable of working, so if she does have mental issues that cause her not to be capable of the executive function required to run her life well, at risk of being scammed etc., it does seem like she should be able to request an impartial conservator.

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It seems that the judge has granted the co-conservator request to withdraw from this case, which leaves Jamie Spears in sole control of Brittany, her body, her life and her finances.

Meanwhile, my neighbor who is in another spiral of her schitzophrenia, called the police on ‘intruders’ yesterday (new neighbor, who moved in a week ago, was having a delivery) and today paramedics because she fainted; when asked when, she replied “yesterday”! At this very moment, she is sitting in her car honking her horn and blasting the radio; she’s already been quite busy this morning, pulling furniture and artworks onto the front lawn for her dead husband to enjoy.

Over the past 35 years, we neighbors have done so much to try to help her - medically, legally, socially etc.; however, when the gun threats started, and she moved three homeless men into her home, it became very difficult. The new neighbors, who have three small children, are in for a shock!

Back to Brittany, I think when there is a great deal of money at stake, families and courts see things through different glasses.

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How does Britney have the competency to perform regularly, have a standing show in Las Vegas, earn millions and millions of $ (much of it going to a retinue of people earning their livelihood from her) and still need a conservator? The patriarchal misogyny in this scenario is breathtaking (aware that many other folks need conservators).

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The 2 things that I’m having a hard time with are 1- that she can’t substitute a professional for her father, and 2- that she doesn’t have the right to get rid of her IUD.

#2 is very, very complicated because she’d probably have to be off of some of her meds during pregnancy, and she doesn’t have custody of her current children, but on the other hand, the right to procreate is a fundamental human right.

I feel very sorry for her.

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I don’t think if Brittney was having manic episodes or other mental episodes, she would be able to do a Vegas show 6 times a week. I agree that daddy dearest is milking this for all he can

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I am an attorney, and I do conservatorships. While Dad sounds like a peach (not), and there are a lot of things that don’t make a lot of sense, I assure you we don’t know enough to even begin to understand whether the conservatorship is appropriate, whether her court appointed attorney is doing his job, and what Ms. Spears needs. I have no doubt the media is getting details wrong. It is sad an inappropriate that Ms. Spears’ situation is on full but distorted display for us to judge and speculate about. She deserves better.

I will say that the mental health system in California profoundly fails people and the family who wants to help them every day. Conservatorship law is horribly, tragically flawed. To the extent her case sheds a light on its problems, that is a good thing. But it feels like she is being exploited all the more right now by the media.

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She definitely deserved better


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CateCAParent - while every situation is of course unique and we don’t know all the details of this one - just on the basic information available - a woman (since her conservatorship) has performed years of public entertainment tours, a residency at Las Vegas, released mutliple successful records - she can do all that but still not run her own life in the most elemental ways? Isn’t that basic info an incredibly strong argument that she is being controled by those for whom she makes money?

It’s absolutely galling for women and people with mental health issues everywhere. (Note: I’m not a fan). I’m sure many, many others (non-famous) are in similar positions (control for the benefit of others).

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No offense to you, but conservatorship and guardianship law in this country is extremely exploited and corrupt. The media helped expose the most appalling guardianship abuse in Nevada several years ago. And it is happening all over. So no, I’m not inclined to think all is on the up and up in this situation just because you practice in the area and because it’s been reported that she has mental health issues. This situation reeks! The IUD situation, for example, is a human rights violation. We don’t sterilize even the worst parents in this country yet Britney has been effectively sterilized against her will. I know prostitutes who have lost 7-8 children, each at birth after the first few, to the foster care/adoption system because they are unfit, yet they aren’t forced to be on birth control.

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What I am saying is, you only know what you hear. You don’t know what the IUD situation is. You know what Ms Spears said.

Let’s just say for the sake of argument (and I am NOT saying this is what is happening here), that a person with schizophrenia has delusions. They tell the court “their truth”. It involves a plot that everyone involved with the conservatorship is conspiring against them and violating their basic human rights in horrific ways. It doesn’t make it true, but it makes them very very vulnerable.

Of course not being allowed to marry and being forced to have an IUD are human rights violations. Of course being forced to work when you neither want nor have to is a human rights violation. If that is what is happening, it is horrible. It is criminal. So, while I am suspicious about what is happening, and believe the conservatorship system is in serious need of reform, I have seen too many situations where things aren’t as they appear to make bold pronouncements. I am only suggesting that the media frenzy is compounding the situation.

It is worth noting that conservatorship statutory law, as written, does not allow the conservator to control the right to marry or have children. So either that is not happening (keep in mind Ms Spears is 39), or there are such extreme extenuating circumstances that the court issued an order about it (highly unlikely), or the conservator of the person and Ms Spears’ attorney and the court investigator are all in cahoots in hiding it from the judge. Or the judge is in on it, too. We don’t know which of those it is. But I find the cahoots theory the least plausible. Just saying, it is possible, just possible, that things aren’t happening how it is described in the press, or even by Ms Spears in court.

It is fine and appropriate to wonder why she is conserved. I certainly do, especially since the type of conservatorship she has is NOT for people with mental illnesses like bipolar and schizophrenia, etc. that require psychotropic meds. It is darned hard for families to get the court system to help them get care for their sick loved ones. The judge gets no additional pay or kick backs for famous people cases. Ms Spear does appear higher functioning, so why her? But we are not privy to her medical records, nor should we be. It could be that she really does have the ability to perform, and chooses to, but doesn’t have the ability to take care of her own health decisions. We really don’t know. All I am saying is approach the media reports with skepticism and reserve judgment. Just because the media reports it doesn’t make it true. The mountain of information we don’t know overwhelms the molehill of information we do.

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Thank you for your post. That’s what I’ve tried to say.

I’m pretty sure my husband’s sister has schizophrenia, or at least is delusional. But she can SOUND quite rational. It’s just that when we’ve checked out what she’s told us about how horribly she’s been treated, it doesn’t pan out.

People with delusions are 100% certain they are in touch with reality. They can sound quite convincing.

Having said all that, I think that Britney’s father is a horrible person. Ugh.

Ronan Farrow has an article in the New Yorker

I will say that I don’t know enough and most people don’t to make any judgment on this.

I will say that if Ms Spears does indeed need a conservatorship, then a lot of people are profiting off a very ill person. And that they are not putting Ms Spears best interests above their own greed.

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Interestingly - it’s not the ‘bad actor dad’ that’s so bothersome to me in this scenario (of course he sounds awful). There are many, many bad parents in the world. It’s a system that would allow such an extended, controlling conservatorship to continue for years and years - even when the subject of it is in the public eye and presumably the situation would be under greater scrutiny.

What about all the people who don’t have news outlets highlighting the inequities of their situations?

The fact that the celebrity in this case is a woman also seems key - as others have noted, out-of-control conduct by male celebrities again and again has not resulted in this sort of extended monitoring/restriction. Seems like something out of the Handmaiden’s Tale.

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My big issue is not about the conservatorship but that those in charge of Britney are profiting and are living off her. She has worked and has worked hard. She could very well have problems and may need someone in charge of her affairs. But these people who are in charge are making millions off her while apparently she has a allowance.

She may need an allowance, she may need help with her personal affairs. But it seems unfair that she has to pay for the lawyers that are fighting against her. And that her own representation is picked by the people who are living off the money she makes.

This is what makes this difference than most conservatorships. Most people I suspect who have this arrangement are incapable of making a living, Ms Spears is not only working but making a fortune that she has no control over or her personal affairs.

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