Brown and Columbia/ rethinkng HYPSM

<p>yield is a mediocre measure by itself - heard about the tufts syndrome? Penn has a higher yield than princeton. But in extremes it tells you something, like Harvard has ~80% yield and Carnegie Mellon has a really low yield (meaning many applicants see it as a back up).</p>

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<p>Yes, I think this is an accurate observation. But I also think the difference in qualifications has more to do with ECs than academics. The University of Chicago (in admissions and everything else) does not attach much weight to athletic performance, in particular. They don’t seem to do a lot of “class crafting”. Yet even before the recent surge in applications and drop in admit rate (to 18% this year), Chicago’s 75th% SAT scores have been close to the medians at Brown, Penn, Amherst, Columbia or Dartmouth. In fact, according to current P’ton Review numbers, the CR+M medians at Chicago are slightly higher than the medians at any of these schools. If you are an excellent student, all this is a good thing. It means that admission to Chicago is less of a crap shoot than it is to the Ivies, yet the student academic caliber is still very high (minus the interesting diversity of rowers, celebrities, developments admits, and “story kids”.) </p>

<p>The Chicago faculty is superb ([List</a> of Nobel laureates by university affiliation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_laureates_by_university_affiliation]List”>List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation - Wikipedia)). The best professors are rewarded for teaching undergraduates ([Llewellyn</a> John and Harriet Manchester Quantrell Awards for Excellence in Undergraduate Teaching | The University of Chicago](<a href=“http://www.uchicago.edu/about/accolades/quantrell.shtml]Llewellyn”>http://www.uchicago.edu/about/accolades/quantrell.shtml)). For small classes, it equals or beats any Ivy League school. (<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/708190-avg-class-size-4.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/708190-avg-class-size-4.html&lt;/a&gt;, post 50). For faculty salaries it is right behind HYP and ahead of the other Ivies ([Top</a> 500 Ranked Universities for Highest FT Faculty Salaries](<a href=“USA University College Directory - U.S. University Directory - State Universities and College Rankings”>Top 500 Ranked Colleges - Highest Full-Time Faculty Salaries)). It has more rigorous graduation requirements than the Ivies (~15 required courses; mathematics, history/civilization and foreign language proficiency requirements). For graduate earnings potential, it compares well with the Ivies for starting salary, mid-career salary, or number of billionaire alumni. For alumni PhD’s per capita, it is the only national, liberal arts university in the top 10 (the others are LACs or technical institutes – [COLLEGE PHD PRODUCTIVITY](<a href=“Doctoral Degree Productivity - Institutional Research - Reed College”>http://www.reed.edu/ir/phd.html&lt;/a&gt;)). It also has an excellent record for placements into top law and medical schools. With completion of the new Mansueto Library, scheduled to open next Spring, Chicago will have one of the largest and most advanced research library collections in the world (and the only top research library in North America to make its entire collection completely available on campus.) It operates the largest university press in the USA, which supports the preparation of original materials for instruction. Classes almost always work from primary source materials and specimens, not from textbooks prepared at other institutions. The school has a strong undergraduate focus, yet is also a leading research university with many top departments and several among the very best in the world.</p>

<p>So I think Chicago is about rightly-rated on these boards. More than people in the general population, informed posters here tend to respect its academic quality, but understand it’s not for everyone. And although the South Side of Chicago is not as attractive as Cambridge, maybe not even as attractive as Morningside Hts these days, I would not call Hyde Park an “unbelievably bad” neighborhood.</p>

<p>uhhh, Lirazel, you forgot to include Notre Dame on your highly subjective list, thus automatically rendering your whole post as elitist pablum.</p>

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Great point.</p>

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No, it is called opinion. Buy a dictionary.</p>

<p>fact: a concept whose truth can be proved
opinion: a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty</p>

<p>^yes, you are technically correct. Bad wording on my part. But yea, that does remind me… I actually do have to buy a dictionary… I’ve been relying on online dictionaries for way to long.</p>

<p>HYPSM isn’t open to new members. and

[quote]
As for Brown, I don’t mean to be disrespectful to any Brown students here, but until they compel every student to receive grades I’d think it would be hard for them to be considered on the level of a school like HYPSM.

[quote]
is spot on.</p>

<p>^the grades excuse is a poor way for penn students to feel better about themselves. f****** bottom feeders…</p>

<p>I think it’s RIDICULOUS how Brown doesn’t require grades of students. Seriously?? </p>

<p>Just my opinion…</p>

<p>Seeing how many schools hand out at least an A- to anyone who shows up and does the required work, I don’t think it’s that ridiculous.</p>

<p>I don’t. The idea that school revolves around grades is just as ridiculous.</p>

<p>Well, considering HYPSM all revolve around grades, Brown must be the geniuses and the other Ivies just don’t know what they’re doing when it comes to running a College.</p>

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The College of the Ozarks has a 9% admit rate. Should it be joining HYPSM as well? </p>

<p>You just succumbed to #57 of my common misconceptions.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064138488-post1.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1064138488-post1.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The “middle” Ivies are all within a few percentage points of HYPS. HYPS is in the 7-8% range while Brown, Dartmouth, and Columbia are all close at 9-11%. Penn is at 14%. All pretty close.</p>

<p>I think the fact that B and C still have ED policies to ensure they grab students who are guaranteed to attend in and of itself renders these two in a different league. </p>

<p>Yes, we’re splitting hairs, and both are great schools, but for whatever reason, rational or not, they don’t hold the same “wow” factor as HYPSM.</p>

<p>Brown doesn’t have that many high ranked programs. Penn has more high ranked programs than Brown. </p>

<p>Yes, they had low acceptance rates this year. Doesn’t make them on par with HYPSM. They just had more applicants than previous years.</p>

<p>In the end, I don’t think it matters whether Brown or Chicago are on par in ranking w/HYPSM. The kids who want to go to Brown and Chicago are a self-selecting group. These schools are appealing to a different kid, and not necessarily to one who would cross-apply to HYPSM. And I would venture to guess that some of those kids aren’t as concerned about the prestige factor. These schools are obviously considered among the best in the country. At a certain point, enough is enough. It may be more about ‘fit’ and the quality of their overall undergrad education. Both schools have amazing grad school admissions stats (including Brown despite the pass/fail option).</p>

<p>For my own S, he’s not interested in Princeton b/c its exclusive clubs & mandated grade deflation=major turnoff. He’d prefer H for grad school; wants a college w/ more of an undergrad focus & fewer TA classes. While he’ll be a neuro concentrator, loves the humanities too and wants equally strong depts (Not MIT). Doesn’t want to be on west coast. That leaves Yale, which he’s considering. Right now: Brown is 1st choice. One of best neuro depts in country, great undergrad focus and like Chicago & Swat, most students there for sake of learning; intellectually curious student body w/ less emphasis placed on prestige factor.</p>

<p>Looked at Penn too. May apply but isn’t thrilled by heavy frat presence and pre-professional attitude. Puts it further down his list.</p>

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You realize half of Princeton’s eating clubs are basically sign-in to join and that Princeton practices grade deflation?

Undergraduate focus and strong in the humanities, hm… Sounds like Princeton.</p>

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<p>I actually very strongly disagree with that statement about those two in particular. I think if you were to say that students applying to schools like MIT, CalTech, Wharton, or even a school like Notre Dame were self-selecting to a certain extent, that’s believable. But especially in the case of Brown, there are probably many more kids who didn’t get the choice between Brown and an upper Ivy than kids that did. Most cross-admit studies I’ve seen has Brown holding its own, except for against schools like HYPS. At a school like Wharton, students truly are self-selecting, as evidenced by their huge yield and strong showing in cross-admit battles. Brown students may like the school, but not really “self-selecting” in the same sense.</p>

<p>The Princeton kids are going to fight you to the death about how the eating clubs aren’t a very big deal, but I had the exact same problem with them that your son does (I’m a 2014 admitted to YP and Columbia). I absolutely fell in love with Yale after being admitted, and for what your son is looking for, it sounds like a great fit.</p>

<p>If you’d like more details, feel free to PM me. My top choices completely changed between the time I was a Junior and a Senior, so you never know what he might end up liking. Hopefully you’ve visited the schools, that’s what made the biggest difference for me.</p>

<p>Yes but that still leaves half that are exclusive. He simply doesn’t want a campus with that sort of a vibe/mindset and as an upperclassman, he doesn’t think he’ll want to eat in a club, sign-in or not. May want to live off-campus and cook for himself. Noted deflation in my post. He attends a rigorous NYC private school that practices grade deflation (average GPA=3.2, average SAT= c.2200), so he’s already experienced what it’s like first-hand. He saw the recent NYTimes article about the mandated Princeton grade deflation & wasn’t thrilled reading that it ties profs hands and may make the student body more unnecessarily competitive.</p>

<p>And yes, Princeton does have a strong undergrad focus and is wonderful for the humanities but it’s the stuff above that doesn’t appeal to him, but that’s just him. The exclusivity of the eating clubs in and of itself may be very appealing to other personalities. No right or wrong here; no judgment. What’s great about the selection of schools in this country is that there are so many that offer terrific educations – great academics, fine profs, academic strength of peers – but beyond that each has its own ethos, such that you really can find a good personal fit, and of course, hope that you get accepted:)</p>