Brown compared to the top LAC's

<p>I hope you guys know P.hd productivity means very little. Its the quality of the phd student. Anyone can go get a bs phd but if you look at stats most nobel laureates didn't go to LAC's.</p>

<p>for 2006 nobel prizes undergad instituion attended</p>

<p>Physics
1 swarthmore
1 MIT</p>

<p>Chemistry
1 harvard</p>

<p>Medicine
UC Berkley
1 brown</p>

<p>Literature
university of istanbul (not a LAC)</p>

<p>Peace
1 vanderbilt
1 dhaka universityu</p>

<p>economics
1 amherst</p>

<p>so only 2 for lac's? Also none of the actual research for any of these prizes was done at a lac thus proving no serious research happen at an LAC.</p>

<p>collegehopeful78: Wouldn't you have to take account of the relative numbers of undergraduates at the different kinds of institutions (not to mention to use a number of years, so as to avoid the possibility of having skewed figures based on an usual year)?</p>

<p>Interesting, posterx. I have always had a sense that undergraduates were less the center of the school at Yale than at Princeton or Brown and that Yale was more graduate/professional school-centric. However, I haven't been there in quite a while. Because it has law, management and medical schools as well as impressive graduate departments that tend to have significant part institutional draw, I would be surprised if their existence and import did not to pull the center of gravity away from undergraduates. I don't know if my intuition is consistent or inconsistent with the expenditure data you are describing.</p>

<p>Momfromme is right, of course. Your numbers, showing that 2 of the 7 U.S. Nobels last year went to LAC alumni, actually contradict your own assertions - LACs contribute only a meager 3% of all college graduates. Of course a study cohort as small as 7 is a bit statistically challenged to begin with.</p>

<p>"even though only 3 percent of American college graduates were educated at a residential liberal arts college, alumni of these colleges accounted for:</p>

<p>8 percent of Forbes magazine’s listing of the nation’s wealthiest CEOs in 1998
8 percent of former Peace Corps volunteers
19 percent of U.S. presidents
23 percent of Pulitzer Prize winners in drama, 19 percent of the winners in history, 18 percent in poetry, 8 percent in biography, and 6 percent in fiction from 1960 to 1998
9 percent of all Fulbright scholarship recipients and 24 percent of all Mellon fellowships in the humanities
20 percent of Phi Beta Kappa inductions made between 1995 and 1997
On a per capita basis, liberal arts colleges produce nearly twice as many students who earn a Ph.D. in science as other institutions. Liberal arts graduates also are disproportionately represented in the leadership of the nation’s scientific community. In a recent two-year period, nearly 20 percent of the scientists elected to the prestigious National Academy of Sciences received their undergraduate education at a liberal arts college."</p>

<p>I'd again argue that a research career can be equally well supported by both top-tier LACs and strong universities. Clearly, each individual needs to decide which setting provides a better fit for that given individual. But making a selection based on fear of compromising a future research career is certainly not supported by hard data. Talk with your own faculty – academicians are often the most unwavering supporters of small school attributes.</p>

<p>Shawbridge, the undergraduate "Yale College" is completely central to the institutional characteristics of Yale, because of the way the institution is structured. In many ways, if you look at the facts and figures, Yale is more of an undergrad-focused "LAC" than even most LACs. </p>

<p>First, you have to understand how corporate board decisions are made to really have an understanding of who is top in the pecking order. At Yale, undergraduate alumni have long made all the decisions and the funding and attention given to undergraduate programs reflects that. Much of this influence is due to the relative size of the programs. It is true that Yale has extremely prestigious professional schools, but they largely run on their own (with their own faculty and finances) and also, are relatively small in terms of enrollment. Yale Law for example only has about 200 students per class, versus 600 per class at many of the other top law schools. Overall, 1/2 the students at Yale are undergraduates, with many of the others divided among about 10 small professional schools, compared to 1/3 at, for example, Harvard, with non-undergrad enrollments concentrated at other large schools such as HBS. If you do not count all the professional schools which are largely separate anyways, the vast majority of students at Yale are undergraduates.</p>

<p>Second, the layout of the campus itself can be important. At Yale, the undergraduate campus represents the center of campus, surrounding the library and professors' offices, while professional schools and graduate housing/programs are usually located slightly farther away. This means all of the undergraduate dormitories are within a 2-3 minute walk of each other, which is great in terms of social life. In that sense, no other universities are as compact as Yale.</p>

<p>Besides that structure, the only way to evaluate how undergrad-focused an institution is to look at the actual program. To do that, you need to talk to as many students and professors as possible about their thoughts in terms of the quality of the undergraduate program. Also, you can do things like look at the student-faculty ratios in the most popular departments (not across the institution as a whole), such as history, political science, psychology, economics or biology, areas where pretty much every student ends up taking a class or two, and where a significant fraction if not the majority of the student body actually majors. For example, last time I checked,, Yale had over 100 professors in its history department for 5,000 undergraduates (1:50); Brown had about 40 for 6,000 undergraduates (1:150); Harvard had about 80 for 6,500 (1:80), and many top LACs had 10 or 15 for about 1,500-2,000 undergraduates (1:100, sometimes a little better, sometimes not). In biology and other sciences, the ratio I calculated for Yale after adjusting for the number of science majors was, like Caltech's, about 1:2 or better; at Cornell, for example, it is more like 1:10. It's important to do any of this carefully, because you have to consider a lot of other factors as well. You can also look at class size statistics, but it is very hard to gather reliable ones that reflect the true experiences of a typical student without actually going and counting them yourself, and if you can, they typically just reflect the numbers above. U.S. News's figures for example shows Yale has pretty much the smallest class sizes out there. A better way, like I said above, is just to ask a bunch of students and faculty about it and judge for yourself. Anyhow, if an institution is truly undergraduate-focused, faculty will be somewhat concentrated in the areas that undergraduates actually major in, and class sizes will be small.</p>

<p>Wbwa - great list. But if you added places like Caltech, Yale, Princeton, and Dartmouth to the list, which are more focused on undergrads than even most LACs, the numbers would be even more striking between the top programs/LACs and the run-of-the-mill large universities. </p>

<p>In other words, not all universities, and not all LACs, are created equal. The distinction is mostly a marketing term anyways.</p>

<p>As usual, a thread with PosterX involved becomes a hardsell for Yale. Surprised anyone?</p>

<p>Last we spoke about student to faculty ratio, I made you look pretty poor about your assumptions at Brown, it's interesting that you've decided to reframe the way you look at the numbers now.</p>

<p>The point is that you can't categorize blindly into either "university" or "LAC." The distinctions between the two are largely the invention of marketeers. </p>

<p>Places like Harvard College and Yale College are just examples and I was answering questions about them.</p>

<p>You can categorize between the two fairly easily-- it just so happens that some schools, and many in the Ivy League in particular, have had strong traditions of undergraduate focus and a strong liberal education even though they've been universities for over a century.</p>

<p>When looking across all higher ed, the distinctions are clear, it just so happens we're talking about an elite segment.</p>

<p>That being said, I still don't think anything I've presented is disingenuous and I find it funny that the support for LACs in this thread has not come out of what makes the LAC unique, but why they're offering exactly what I siad Brown was offering.</p>

<p>I presented something that Brown offers that most LACs do not-- I didn't talk about results, I didn't talk about what htat means for one's education, I did mention what that experience meant for me, and further said that I needed that experience for my education but it wouldn't be required for everyone. Instead of someone coming in here and saying, "Here is what hte LAC offered to me that I couldn't get somewhere like Brown," it became an overall defense of that educational philosophy-- one which was never under any challenge by any of the primary people taking part in the thread.</p>

<p>modestmelody: I've been paying you the compliment of taking your ideas and arguments seriously. Thus, I've responded to what you've said about Brown. There are plenty of other threads on which to discuss the contributions, benefits and yes, limitations, of LACs.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Modestmelody, objective data does not support your comments.</p>

<p>For instance, if you compare Pomona (a top 10 LAC) to Brown:</p>

<p>Endowment per Student: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._colleges_and_universities_by_endowment%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._colleges_and_universities_by_endowment&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Pomona - $942,530
Brown - $285,187</p>

<p>Proportion of Biology undergraduates required to pursue a research project:</p>

<p>Pomona -100%. <a href="http://www.biology.pomona.edu/research/overview.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.biology.pomona.edu/research/overview.shtml&lt;/a>
Brown - Only those in the biology "honors" program. <a href="http://bms.brown.edu/bug/2007-08%20Honors%20Application%20and%20Proposal%20Form%20in%20Biology.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://bms.brown.edu/bug/2007-08%20Honors%20Application%20and%20Proposal%20Form%20in%20Biology.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Quotes from respective web site pages about research:</p>

<p>Pomona - "Student-faculty research is an essential part of Pomona’s educational mission." <a href="http://www.biology.pomona.edu/research/overview.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.biology.pomona.edu/research/overview.shtml&lt;/a>
Brown - "Persistence pays! If you persist, you will get that research job. The strategies I describe below are steps that persistent students have taken. No single strategy always works – expect some rejections, but take them in stride" (from How to Get Involved in Research Projects as an Undergraduate) <a href="http://research.brown.edu/research/forstudents_undergrad.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://research.brown.edu/research/forstudents_undergrad.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This article highlights the caliber of scientific research at Pomona - don't assume LAC's are only strong in "liberal arts".
<a href="http://www.pomona.edu/ADWR/president/presidentsreport/AnnualReport0405F2.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.pomona.edu/ADWR/president/presidentsreport/AnnualReport0405F2.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>While research opportunities for graduate students are excellent at Brown (and non-existant at Pomona), undergraduate research can be, and is, very strong at top LACs. It's more important to be actively involved in high quality research than have "world class" (read "prestigious") research at your institution to which you have little if any access.</p>

<p>I'm not going through all my data right now, it's not a back down it's just that I have nothing invested in arguing over something this ridiculous. Feel free to look into it for yourself, obviously some people here have a vested interest in some prospectives and speaking very generally in a way that may put down another school is a no-no on here unless it's Brown.</p>

<p>That being said, while I can go point for point with that data, I'll just point out that Sarah's Dad has some information that's completely inaccurate since every ScB at Brown (I'm not 100% sure on the engineering ones) requires research (ABs, however, do not require research, and if you don't want an honors degree you don't have to write a thesis after doing the research for credit). It'll be listed as a course requirement, but that's because each department has a course that is "Research for Credit" essentially. He also selectively chooses some interesting quotes about Brown research and fundamentally misunderstands their larger context. All of this information is available via the web and Google so anyone is still reading this thread to learn something from it and not just to argue with each other about it, I suggest you check that out, or PM/IM me to talk further about it.</p>

<p>Not to be too picky, but to keep it accurate, Pomona permits bio majors to EITHER do a research project, OR write a paper based on reading the literature. The latter "library research" project would not be considered research by any conventional definition.</p>

<p>Hey - I'm a big supporter of Brown, a truly exceptional school. For many people, Brown is a perfect mix of pseudo-LAC with big Uni feel. For others, especially those who gravitate toward discussion-style classrooms, more individualized advising, and smaller campus environment, the pure LAC may be preferable. I just don't want someone to choose Brown over an LAC just because they think an ivy provides a better education, especially in sciences.</p>

<p>Nobel Laureate (and LAC grad) Thomas Cech wrote an article entitled "Science at Liberal Arts Colleges: A Better Education?" <a href="http://www.collegenews.org/prebuilt/daedalus/cech_article.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegenews.org/prebuilt/daedalus/cech_article.pdf&lt;/a> . It's a great read for those skeptical of the advantages of an LAC science education.</p>

<p>Notable quote from the article:</p>

<p>"There were only two of us in the lab (at Pomona), so we received a great deal of personal attention from our professor. She was always there for us. We have great students here at Yale, too, but they are handed off to a graduate student or postdoc for their research. It doesn’t compare with the quality of the research experience I had at Pomona."</p>

<p>-Jennifer Doudna, Member, National Academy of Science, former Yale professor, Pomona graduate.</p>

<p>Jason Becker, Brown University student--</p>

<p>There are four undergrads in my lab this semester, none of them answering to any of the four graduate students in my lab, all of whom meet with the PI once a week individually or more and take part in full lab group meetings.</p>

<p>Individual experiences anywhere can be fantastic, different, or better. I argue from BEING at Brown, knowing what my friends do for research and what I do when doing research that we interact frequently with our PIs, that we're actually doing the research, that we have all of the personal attention imaginable while doing research, that it's false you're not required to do research for a Sci B, and that it's as easy as asking to do research. On the whole, that experience is not available in any comparable capacity when looking at the average LAC (not necessarily Pomona, Harvey-Mudd, etc). I'm saying that while we do offer what is a balance between the LAC and big Uni, that we do have discussion-style classes and highly individualized advising, and "smaller" depends on your basis of comparision.</p>

<p>There are many excellent reasons ot choose a LAC, many are mentioned in this thread. There are a few things Brown offers than an LAC doesn't (not necessarily any individual LAC, but on the whole, doesn't), and that research experience is one. There are SOME LACs that do offer that particular experience to which I referred to, but no specific LAC is mentioned by the OP so I answered based on the general case, and not falsely.</p>

<p>^^^ and that's exactly the reason I chose Brown,.....over all the other schools I was so fortunate to get accepted to.</p>

<p>A few things: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Endowment, "expenditure per student" whatever, has little to do with the attention given each student. They are JUST NUMBERS. I will repeat this until the day I die. Maybe, just maybe, it will sink in to someone's head. </p></li>
<li><p>PosterX: Campus layout effecting research opportunities and overall social life? Are you for real?</p></li>
<li><p>At Brown, anyone pursuing an Sc. B has to do research, NOT just honors. And at Pomona you don't have to take physics for a bio degree...!!!! OOhhhh, scary. Means so much about education quality.... My point is that we shouldn't nit pick so much. These are all great schools. When you're trying to say one school is superior because of a quote found on a website or the proximity of builidngs, you are seriously grasping at straws and, frankly, picking fights. </p></li>
<li><p>I just got a offered a payed research job by simply introducing myself to a professor and writing a follow up email...wherever you got that "persistance pays" quote, I don't think it's accurate at all.</p></li>
</ol>