<p>if you base your decision on how other people perceive penn, then don't go. Remember, this is the 'happy-to-be-there', social ivy.</p>
<p>Brown is a great school, but the only schools that pull 80/20 in terms of cross admits with Penn are Harvard and MIT. Yale and Princeton pull about 60/40 and Brown actually gets less than 50 % of the cross admits.</p>
<p>Admission rates are a function of the size of the freshman class versus the size of the application pool. Since Penn has a freshman class of around 2400, it will never have admit rates as low as smaller Ivies.</p>
<p>Nevertheless each Ivy basically turns down as many kids as it admits with identical statistical credentials so it's a somewhat irrelevant statistic.</p>
<p>I agree that Penn in the 80's was a school in distress. Aging infrastructure, financial mismanagement and lack of strong leadership were real issues. Those corners were turned a long time ago though.</p>
<p>penn has </p>
<h1>3 med school behinf harvard and JHU</h1>
<h1>3 Business school behing Harvard/stanford</h1>
<h1>1 BBA</h1>
<h1>5 Education</h1>
<h1>7 Lawshool</h1>
<p>What does brown, dirtmouth columbia and cornell have to offer to match that.</p>
<p>I'd pick Penn in a heartbeat because Philadelphia is such an awesome city.</p>
<p>not disinformation...the cross admit data is in the linked well-designed study. 1245, your numbers are quite inflated. for matriculants, harvard & mit actually split well over 90/10 w/ penn, for yale, princeton, and stanford it's closer to 80/20, and for columbia, brown and dartmouth it's 60-70/30-40 (as of the class of 2008)</p>
<p>that being said, i agree that each ivy could admit a similarly qualified student body out of those that were not accepted in terms of medians. cross-admit data is not irrelevant however, because student preference drives selectivity at the upper end of the admitted applicant pool</p>
<p>dcircle and 1245, where exactly did you get your numbers?</p>
<p>how tight-knit is the campus? Philly is a great city, and no doubt that'll tend to lure students away from campus, whereas somewhere isolated like Dartmouth and Brown to an extent, students don't have much choice but to stay on campus, resulting in a closer community</p>
<p>cross admit is very difficult to get info. Harvard is the only one which would go ahead and admit folks with out worry about yield. In that case also, Harvard would be careful not to over admit any one type. Case prep schools : there are feeders: wilson, roxbury latin, exter, andover etc. I would bet here Harvardgets about 5-10 students each every year. I wouls also venture that offers are typical in 5-10 range. Guidance dept will typically tell College what student is thinking, so that way final decision is pretty much flushed out. If Harvard gives 10 offers to exter and only 3 show up, the there is something has gone wrong. Prep and Ivy need each other. Prep touts ivy to get rich kids and ivy makes sure it get 90% yield at preps, otherwise this cozy relationship will off. Each ivy has feeders, Like in NJ; Pingry Penn/Harvard/Pton/yale
Dalbarton: Columbia/pton, Kent place: Brown/penn/columbia
Lawreceville Pton/yale/harvard/stanford
Princeton County day: pton/harvard/yale</p>
<p>so cross admits is a very small sample: 50% of penn 1200 class are in ED. rest 1200 are selected from 2400 RD offers. If I have to guess cross admits with HYPMS will not be more than 5-10. If 80-90% go way, who gives a damn. Typicall these are M&T types. Cross admits with pton alone would will be higher may be 20 range where Penn would get 50% since these are m&t types and pton has nothing to offer such thing.
With Brown columbia Dartmouth cross admit may be in 100 range with 50-60% yield again due to dual appeal. with cornell/jhu/duke cross admit could be 200-300 range where penn getting 60-70%.</p>
<p>Every school including Harvard would only extend offer if that are 80-90% sure that selected student would come, otherwise it will become crap shoot, so they have to manage these offers very carefully.</p>
<p>
[quote]
dcircle and 1245, where exactly did you get your numbers?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Looks like they are made up right on the spot. </p>
<p>Cornell publishes its numbers and it claims that Columbia only goes 60/40 maximum on Cornell. Penn has a much higher yield than cornell, so obviously 80/20 is ridiculous.</p>
<p>He just wants to put down Penn in favor of Brown. Pretty sad attempt. Of course, he would also want to put down Cornell since Brown dropped below Cornell in the USNEWS ranking.</p>
<p>its so true that Brown would have a closer community than penn
my friend who already graduated from brown last yr and now working in NYC ...whenever i call him ..he is always around his old Brown friends..different ones every time..they seem to be a very close knitted community up in Brown family
but brown's NO GPA concerns me tho...u need competition to make u stronger and tuffer so....</p>
<p>But i love penn too.. they seemed awesome when i visited
closely bonded
they seem to emphasize that they push their kids very hard (i kinda like dat)
struggling to decided</p>
<p>Just look at another IVY feeder here Deerfied Academy 5yr collEge data
Offers/acceptances , %
Harvard 49/44 90%
Columbia 31/21 ~70%
PENN 64/45 ~70%
mit 11/8 ~ 75%
bROWN 72/51 ~70%
dMOUTH 23/11 ~50%
yALE 38/33 ~85%
pTON 29/26 ~90%
sTANFORD 23/11 55% </p>
<p>aT THIS ivy FEEDER PENN HAS YIELD CLOSE TO MIT/BROWN/COLUMBIA WHICH IS GOOD SINCE THIS IS A BOSTON AREA SCHOOL.</p>
<p>Just look at another IVY feeder here Deerfied Academy 5yr collEge data
Offers/acceptances , %
Harvard 49/44 90%
Columbia 31/21 ~70%
PENN 64/45 ~70%
mit 11/8 ~ 75%
bROWN 72/51 ~70%
dMOUTH 23/11 ~50%
yALE 38/33 ~85%
pTON 29/26 ~90%
sTANFORD 23/11 55% </p>
<p>aT THIS ivy FEEDER PENN HAS YIELD CLOSE TO MIT/BROWN/COLUMBIA WHICH IS GOOD SINCE THIS IS A BOSTON AREA SCHOOL.</p>
<p>the numbers are not made up, they're routinely calculated each year by each ivy admission office--by agreement, numbers are shared among the schools but never published. this includes cornell. i assure you, the brown admission office does lose a few students to penn and cornell and dartmouth, but pays much more attention to the students they lose to harvard and yale. on the whole, the cross-admit numbers have changed very little in the last ten years. the only school to have made significant recent gains on brown is columbia which since the study i linked in a prior post, now splits 50/50</p>
<p>this is quite interesting, i never even knew that brown stole of all these students from its peers</p>
<p>how reliable is ur info</p>
<p>after hyp
i would think that Columbia will be leading all of them, then prob like penn, then dartmouth, then brown, then cornell</p>
<p>there is some interesting regional variation, but the overall order of all head to head cross-admit wins is:
harvard, (followed by a huge gap), then yale (small gap), then MIT, caltech, stanford, and princeton, (small gap), then brown, columbia, (small gap), amherst, dartmouth, wellesley, (small gap), penn, notre dame, swarthmore, cornell, georgetown, rice, williams, duke</p>
<p>dcircle, ur list is identical to the list by that study by Penn, where ru getting ur info from</p>
<p>and i doubt, (seriously doubt!!!) that notre dame is beating out cornell, williams, and duke, no way in hell</p>
<p>I think he gets it from the revealed preference ranking, which is not officially supported by schools. There is no definitive data on any of this information. For example, Penn has no idea which schools I turned down to go to Penn. What I do know is that Penn had the highest yield in the Ivy league after HYP, at 65%. And don't even bother saying that Penn students are of an unselective group because both USNWR and the Princeton Reviewed ranked Penn higher in selectivity than Brown.</p>
<p>and i doubt that Duke is losing out to Rice, form what i have seen....</p>
<p>yeah, in the list i gave above i was just summarizing the revealed preference ranking...it's true. in order to interpret the ranking and similar stats that are thrown out there, you have to know exactly what they mean</p>
<p>in the case of the revealed preference, the high ranking of notre dame does not mean it is specifically beating out cornell in terms of students who are admitted to both. it means that notre dame wins a larger fraction of matriculation "tournaments" overall. this is probably because notre dame has a strong tradition of legacy admits--those that tend to apply, tend to go. at the same time, there are many many more students who apply to cornell and never even consider notre dame. so it does not mean that most of the students that apply to cornell would rather go to notre dame.</p>
<p>penn's yield stat also requires scrutinization. penn admits the highest fraction of its class ED in the ivy league, and maintains the largest wait list. by admission of penn's own admission's officer, penn also deliberately rejects applicants at the very top of the pool, whom they think won't matriculate. a very large number of the students in the yield stat, were not admitted to brown or never applied. by contrast, a surprising number of cross-applicants w/ HYP who were admitted to HYP (sometimes all three) were not admitted to penn. keep in mind that the top of the applicant pool is very different from the median and mean numbers reported by "selectivity rankings". all of the ivies enjoy large enough applicant pools that they can pretty much arbitrarily set the mean GPA and SAT's at whatever they want. the truth is, they don't do this because GPA and SAT's correlate unreliably w/ college performance at certain cut offs.</p>
<p>none of these stats say anything strongly definitive about the quality of the schools or the fit for a particular applicant. i just tossed the revealed preference study up there to demonstrate that unlike what was stated by a previous poster, many students are in fact interested in dartmouth and brown</p>