Read through this thread. Got a headache as I am not a math person. All I really want to know is if University of Chicago’s football team is still undefeated.
What I would like to know is how many students actually graduate from the University of Chicago without completing at a calculus sequence through Math 132 or higher (or getting placed out of that)?
My daughter would have loved to do that. Her initial academic advisor essentially told her it was impossible. She had placed out of 131, but had to take 132, which made her completely miserable her first quarter. She tried flunking out of it by not doing any of the work, but was convinced by the TA that it was in her best interest to do enough work to pass (and she actually got her grade up to a B). Again, though, the premise was that she had no choice but to take 132.
Her main interest at the time was long-form modernist poetry. I am sort of gobsmacked that a decade later the university is inviting Business Economics majors to forgo basic calculus.
@JHS “…I am sort of gobsmacked that a decade later the university is inviting Business Economics majors to forgo basic calculus.”
Same reaction here. My reaction is flabbergasted, not to mention disgusted and disappointed. This may be totally emotional and judgmental but my initial reaction is: what the heck is John List thinking? I don’t mind introducing more “practical” or pre-professional aspects to an Econ. major. But graduating with Econ. degree at U of C WITHOUT Calculus? That is blasphemy to me.
The business major is designed in a bit of a misleading way. In order to complete the major, you need to do all the sections like “Pick one macroeconomics course from the list” and such. All these courses in these lists requires elements of economic analysis as a prereq. I couldn’t find a single path that avoids taking that sequence. And since you need to take elements of economic anyalsis, you need to take calculus.
So it seems in a roundabout way you still have to take the rigorous math courses as an inherent prereq.
Thank you @SupremeRussian for the clarification. I kind of know I might be overreacting. Well, apologies to John List then :))
You can already skip calculus if you aren’t in a major that requires it
http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/thecollege/mathematicalsciencescore/
There’s actually a lot of grumbling at how you can find relatively easier options for math and science but not for humanities. Usually this kind of complaining is pretty tone deaf, because in my (anecdotal) experience the “easier” math and science core classes are still no walk in the park for the people taking them.
“Usually this kind of complaining is pretty tone deaf, because in my (anecdotal) experience the “easier” math and science core classes are still no walk in the park for the people taking them.”
- This has certainly been my D's experience in Calc. 130's and non-major science. Those are still real courses.
This Calc/No Calc. thing makes no sense (@85bears46 your outrage was not out-of-line. This is UChicago, after all). @SupremeRussian is correct. I’m just looking at the Micro Methods requirement: you are allowed to choose one course from 201, 207, or 218. 207 and 218 need 201 as a pre-req so 201 is essentially required in order to complete this major. And 201 requires 200 as a pre-req. And 200 requires - guess what? - Calc. 133/53/63.
So there you have it. The “Calculus not required” breaks down - at the very least - at Micro Methods. I’m afraid to look at the other econ. sequences! Not that it’s not a great major - it appears to be. They are just not being quite truthful - either that or there’s a major screw-up somewhere and these guys don’t understand what’s actually required for their courses.
^ to amend the previous post, Econ. 200 also requires that you take Math 19520 (mathematical methods for social science) - at the very least, you have to be enrolled at the same time. This brings up two problems:
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if Math 19520 IS required for the Bus. Econ. major, they need to list it. (Needless to say - Calc. required!);
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if Math 19520 NOT required for Bus. Econ. major, how are they going to teach Econ. 200? Are they going to go a tad “light” on the math because there are Bus. Econ. kids in the class who aren’t taking this course? How does that impact the straight-up Econ majors?
Actually, that last question applies to any course that mixes Econ. with the Bus. Econ. majors. Both groups really need to have the same level of math exposure.
Hold on, I read…
ECON 10000 (no PQs listed) OR ECON 20000 (PQ Calc 153 & concurrent Math 195) satisfies the Major Req.
The ‘OR’ seems to say ECON 10000 is the way around the math associated with ECON 200??
@getmoreveggies - but you can’t take the Micro Methods requirement without taking 20000!
They may not be required do calculus, but they are better off doing it anyway. I think Econometrics is required and so is Data Science too. Econometrics will require knowledge of calculus, dont you guys think? Data Science, depending on which flavor, can be done only with mastery of statistics.
Personally, I think that with business econ, if they load up on statistics instead of calculus, they might be better off.
^Econometrics will require both calculus and statistics. Loading up on stats would very quickly lead to calculus-based statistics, also a good segue to econometrics.
“Personally, I think that with business econ, if they load up on statistics instead of calculus, they might be better off.”
Following the requirements as set out for the major as well as the course descriptions and pre-reqs, the lowest-level stats requirement, 21010, specifies that you at least have to be taking 201 concurrently. 201, as mentioned earlier, requires 200. And 200 requires Calc. 133/53/63.
“Econometrics will require both calculus and statistics. Loading up on stats would very quickly lead to calculus-based statistics, also a good segue to econometrics.”
Yep - The lowest-level econometrics class that satisfies the requirement is 11020, which requires at least 21010 (ie stats noted above) which requires, once you connect the pre-req dots, Calculus 133/153/163.
BTW, it actually IS possible to teach some basic econometrics w/o having to result to calculus; however, it appears that the major as specified in the College Catalog does not provide this simplified option. And that’s a good thing.
I would bet that removing the calculus requirement was intentional, and retaining a back-door calculus requirement unintentional. (Notwithstanding the universal opinion of the peanut gallery here.) Obviously, there are no Business Economics majors yet, so it’s not surprising that they haven’t worked out all of the kinks yet. And it will likely be at least a year, maybe more, before they have any majors who haven’t completed (or placed out of) at least two quarters of calculus.
@JHS - yeah perhaps - because Class of 21 would have been operating under the old “calculus required for econ” rules so if they switch to Bus. Econ they will already have the calculus. Maybe they’ll add a “lite” track next year but they’ll need to do so across a variety of econ areas: theory, stats, and econometrics. It can be done. But it’s a bit of a throwback to when Econ. was a tad “easier” and less rigorous a major than it is today (as well as a “throwback” that didn’t exist at UChicago).
I agree. For many of us, this is more or less hell freezing over.
The football team is really going to improve!
I’m interested in this major, and I’m not a math geek. The business econ major appeals to me, because it allows lots of interesting Booth electives. Will definitely be asking these questions to my adviser once I get to campus.
@f77a9b82 - you might get a fantastic adviser who can answer your questions. My D did NOT have such a person last year nor would I expect that the advising staff is up on the latest nuances in a newly-offered major. You may receive more helpful information from the econ. undergraduate adviser or one of the co-directors of the undergrad. program. All are listed here:
https://economics.uchicago.edu/content/undergraduate-program
@JBStillFlying: thanks for the tip, definitely will seek out the advice of the Econ department.