U Chicago for Wall Street hopefuls

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
1

<p>Horror of horror! U Chicago is doing more and more for the dreaded :o pre-professional students, especially the financial types.</p>

<p>My second year son has gotten the following email/notification/invitation from CCBI (don't know exactly what this means, something like career advisory something).</p>

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<p>This fall CCIB will be starting a new and exciting venture whereby we provide students with business training specifically geared towards financial markets. We will focus a lot on model driven and high frequency trading, and so math skills are essential as this will be very quantitative in nature. Attached is an outline of some of the material to be covered, although this is not yet set in stone and the order in which it is covered is still to be finalized. </p>

<p>For the 2011-2012 academic year, only 2nd years will be invited to apply and they will then receive three-years of training as a cohort a la the mainstream CCIB students now. But for this pilot class we would like to open it up to 2nd years, 3rd years and a few 4th years also. However, this means that 3rd years and 4th years will not get to cover everything in the curriculum, so if you are thinking of applying because you are interested in programming and wish to cover C++ and C Sharp for example, we cannot guaranty that. </p>

<p>We have been given limited time to put this first year together and make sure it is up and running by the fall, and so we cannot tell you definitively what you would cover in one or two years of the program. Also, if you are a 4th year applying, you would have to be on campus for the entire year; we will not accept anyone who plans to study abroad for a quarter.</p>

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<p>Of course, my son is immediately planning to take advantage of it. By the way, the "worries" of the Chicago purists about deviation from the famed U Chicago mantra of the life-of-the-mind is a frequent subject matter of discussion among the adults on this forum. My son, after a year at Chicago and still a devoted Wall Street hopeful, told me that he is as determined as ever to land a career at Wall Street, but he is equally determined to be a capitalist/financier with a soul, integrity, and heart. So, the life of the mind mantra is not wasted, even on the dreaded pre professional types :)</p>

2

<p>Wow! Glad to see Chicago take some unexpected initiative in this area! I kind of wish that I would have had this opportunity, to be honest.</p>

3

<p>for the life of me, I cannot relate this to Wall Street, and I had been 15 years in computer consulting. It looks like a CS program with C++ as the main stream language. Wall street does use that language but so is corporate America and the world, it has no relationship with financial management.</p>

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<p>C#? yuk!!!</p>

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<p>Where do you get the notion that this is just a CS program? I think that’s nonsense. CS is just a component of the program, and a necessary one. Look at Chicago’s financial mathematics MS program, for instance (which, I might add, is the most prestigious in the United States alongside Stanford). A grounding in C++ and C# is pretty much required of everyone coming in, and if you don’t have a background in it, you have to take a programming side course along with your other courses.</p>

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<p>This sentence basically means this: If there are programmers wishing to boost their resumes by being involved in such a program with real-world business applications, it might not be wise to join if you are already in your 3rd/4th year, as there’s no emphasis on programming. Instead, programming is somewhat of an ancillary aspect of the program that will probably come near the end.</p>

<p>This sounds like a solid beginning of an undergraduate business program, and one that is apparently easily misunderstood, judging by the responses generated here.</p>

6

<p>I recall previous threads that touched upon the question of whether undergraduate students can take Booth courses or not. </p>

<p>The following paragraph was part of the invitation for this program, which my son shared with us, and it seems like taking courses at Booth is now a requirement for this program.</p>

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<p>What I liked about their approach was the following. Capitalists with U Chicago flavor!</p>

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7

<p>My son tried this last year. It seems that if don’t already have an overwhelming interest in business, they won’t take you. So much for intellectual exploration. Strikes a bit like the university as a trade school. They school give all comers a shot at exploration. That is also a criticism I have of CAPS. They pidgeon hole you based on past work experience and won’t support your desire to explore other professions.</p>

8

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<p>are you sure the program your son tried last year is the same one we are talking about here? They clearly mentioned in the letter that this year is the pilot year for this program and they were in a hurry to put this first year program together so that the program is up and running by the fall.</p>

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<p>They are opening up this program for 15-20 kids and investing a lot of resources. Based on the description S shared with us, this requires intense commitment on the part of the students. Of course, they are looking for kids who are really determined to follow this route. Why would they take dilettantes who are casually exploring their options? Those who are still at the exploration stage concerning what they want to do post graduation can explore as much as they want, but they should not claim a spot that is clearly intended for those who already made up their mind and are ready to invest blood, sweat, and tears.</p>

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<p>This would be a valid statement, if this is their “regular programming” (meaning curriculum for the entire student body). However, this is an extra curricular activity for a very small number of students who have very specialized interest, and determination to succeed in their chosen field. By the way, if you do not support any practical field or training, would you consider the whole engineering field merely a trade school stuff not fit for a “real” university?</p>

<p>After a year in U Chicago, I have seen the mark of U Chicago education on my son already, and it’s precisely what I wanted to see happen. I knew that he wanted to pursue a career in Wall Street, and I support it. But, I also wanted him to be well educated and intellectual in his orientation and view. If he had to be a banker, at least, I wanted him to be a banker with an intellectual view of the world, and it’s happening, and I am a very happy customer. </p>

<p>I see U Chicago gearing up to provide more career focused support for those thus inclined, and I think it’s a wonderful thing, both for the University community and the students - even the ones who are not pre-professional in nature. It provides more well rounded and diverse education and experience for everyone. </p>

<p>Hey, some of the kids in this program may indeed become extremely successful financiers and donate immense resources to the university, which can be used to provide the life of the mind education to a lot of students who may otherwise not be able to afford it. My son is already saying that, in time, he would like to pay back to U Chicago because he loves what it is doing for him and teaching him so much.</p>

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<p>@hyeonjlee</p>

<p>Don’t worry too much. If your son has transitioned from ‘I only need this degree for Wall Street’ to ‘broker with a conscience’ in one year, another twelve months of the Core might push him to philosophy or social anthropology ;)</p>

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<p>Haha, good one.</p>

<p>More likely, he will become a volunteer for a micro lending co op in a developing nation somewhere.</p>

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<p>@hyeonjlee - I am not 100% sure but I’ll check it out if you send me the link. The facts I stated above are true - at least that has been my son’s experience. I think uChicago is great academically but they need some work in how they run the non teaching activities. I am not as head over heels with UChicago as you are from this an other threads. Programs like this should really be open to all. How are all 18 year olds supposed to know what they want to do for a career from day one. Some might but most don’t. The purpose of a liberal arts education is through distribution requirements or core curriclulum, to expose the student to many subjects and give him/her the chance to find out what they do well in, what they are interested in , what they are passionate about. Otherwise, then it would seem like a trade school or professional school. I am actually arguing FOR Uchicago to be more welcoming to the preprofessional student. They should MORE opportunities like this available because I think both perspectives can exist together and are not mutually exclusive. I am only saying that when Uchicago has done this they don’t open it up enough to students with other interests.</p>

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<p>drdom,</p>

<p>I think what your son tried last year is the general CCIB (Chicago Carreer In Business) program. Looking at the web description, it looks like they do screening for this program, meaning it’s not an open door policy. The program I was talking about here is a special program within CCIB, which is open to an even smaller subset of the general CCIB students. They call it CCIB FM (financial management?), and this year is the first year they are offering it - it’s a brand new program. </p>

<p>It sounds like CCIB FM is a highly selective program. I don’t know how selective the general CCIB program is. However, given that they require SAT/ACT, and go on and on about how to write a resume to maximize the odds of acceptance and what the applicants should wear and how they should present themselves in a selection interview, it does sound pretty selective. It is interesting that the purpose of the interview is to gauge “behavioral fit” of the applicants. Looking at the program description, the general CCIB program requires min 3 courses at Booth. CCIB FM may require even more (I am guessing: the FM program is too new: there is description on their web site yet). </p>

<p>I also noticed one very significant aspect of this program, that is, there is only ONE point of entry - fall of sophomore. You can’t join the program later than that (this is the case for the general CCIB program and CCIB FM)</p>

<p>My general impression is, the school is offering CCIB, and especially CCIB FM, to students who are quite serious about their business training and are ready/willing to make a very significant commitment. It’s quid pro quo: we will promise to invest a lot of resources in those who are clear about what their plans are and willing to make a serious commitment. </p>

<p>Based on the program description, the selection process and requirements, it seems they want this program to be a shining success, and they want to stack the deck to maximize the odds of the program success by choosing students who demonstrate the greatest potential of success to begin with. </p>

<p>Is it fair to establish this kind of highly selective, and what appears to be, very expensive, program that is available to only a very small portion of the general population? Maybe yes, maybe not. </p>

<p>Colleges invest enormous amount of resources for all sorts of programs that benefit only a tiny portion of the student population. The most obvious example is the sports program. We all know that most sport programs are a huge money losing proposition. Granted they provide “school spirit”, etc. But how about some esoteric sports that most students are not even aware of. I read somewhere that it cost $20K/year to support a college golf team member (not Chicago, another school), not that golf is that esoteric. Another glaring example is the Honor Program many state universities are instituting to attract academic stars. Again, this is a program that benefits only a tiny minority of the total student population. Is it fair to invest in these programs? Not everybody gets to join the college lacrosse team even if they want to. Not everybody is qualified for the Honor Program no matter how much they want to. </p>

<p>Colleges are supporting programs like these because they want to enhance the overall reputation, attractiveness, and prestige of the institution that will result in the maximum vibrancy of the community the institution supports that includes current students, alumni, faculty, and other stakeholders. Personally, I believe as long as U Chicago maintains the tradition of the life of the mind culture, anything extra it does to enhance its institutional vibrancy is a worthy cause. I believe the evaluation of the fairness or unfairness of the CCIB program should be made in this context. </p>

<p>A bit of a conspiracy theorist in me thinks that one of the long term goals of the CCIB program is to create a future mega donor pool of highly successful financial movers and shakers. I say, “Hooray, more power to them”. We all hear that one key area of “deficiency” of Chicago vis a vis HYP is the financial aid program. </p>

<p>By the way, my husband and I are so happy with U Chicago, since it turned out so perfect for our son, and he is extremely happy there and thriving beyond our wildest expectation. However, we are keenly aware that this is the case for us, and may not be applicable to others. U Chicago is not for everyone. I said in other threads, and I say it again here - for generic high achieving, ambitious pre professional students, the likes of HYP are a better choice. Needless to say, kids looking for more conventional college experience like big sports and vibrant Greek life should also look elsewhere. Those who can’t stand the pretentious life of the mind this and that should stay far away: I read a post by a parent who couldn’t stand all this Chicago pretentiousness (intellectual this and that): it’s unfortunate that her son decided to attend U Chicago.</p>

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<p>Look, it’s a major change for Chicago to be doing anything this career-oriented for anybody. A few years ago, nothing like this existed. It is a little peevish to criticize it for not having a program for everybody yet when having a program at all is a big deal for them. Sorry, but it should not have been news to any applicant or parent that Chicago did less to support its students’ non-academic career ambitions than many of its competitors.</p>

<p>Eventually – too late for our kids, of course – they will probably get it right.</p>

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<p>yes. JHS put it right. U Chicago is finally catching up with its peers to provide pre professional support, which is way overdue. The life of the mind philosophy should not be confined to academic careers in ivory towers. Wouldn’t you want more politicians with a bit of this leaning and less of the demagoguery?</p>

<p>One thing, though: i think the “only single point of entry” policy for CCIB is way too limiting (meaning, if you don’t join in the fall of the second year, you can’t join later, period). I agree with drdom on this one. Kids are exploring options. Not everyone knew exactly what they wanted to do when they started their first year and created enough material during the first year to convince the program administrator to admit him/her into the program in the fall of the second year. There should be more flexibility for the 3rd and even 4th year students with a program curtailed from the full 3 year version.</p>

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<p>by the way, for the prospective students who are interested in business careers and U Chicago: here is the link for CCIB program:</p>

<p><a href=“Home | CareerAdv”>Home | CareerAdv;

<p>One thing that caught my eye was that most of the advisors in the CCIB program are from the Wall Street, and one of the missions of the CCIB FM program director is to “evangelize” the Wall Street community about the U Chicago’s CCIB program. I hope this leads to better networking and community building for the Chicago kids. It is widely recognized that Chicago kids do not have as robust a network. alumni or otherwise, as their counterparts from the likes of HYPW(Wharton) do. So, organized effort like this by the university itself will help the kids greatly.</p>

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<p>My S loves his Uchicago experience but like many of his peers (and now me) he is keenly aware of its shortcomings in the way the school is administered. I guess that Chicago is about 10+ years behind in many areas of student life not directly concerned with classroom instruction. I try to convey my opinions to the adminsitration when I can. I just had an email exchange with a person from CAPS who admitted that they need to do more for the students that will allow them to explore interships beyond there current or past interests and were trying to correct it. We’ll see.</p>

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<p>yes, this is precisely what I meant when I said above that for generic, ambitious pre-professional students, the likes of HYPW would be a better choice. Based on what I learned thus far, in these places, you would be get ample support and what not for your business career even if you decide on your path later (like 3rd year and on). But at Chicago, unless the students were very much set on what they wanted to do post graduation and took the initiative from very early on on their own, it gets increasingly more difficult to “catch up” with their counterparts from the likes of HYPW.</p>

<p>For my son’s case, he was already very well set and knew exactly what it takes even before he started at U Chicago through the summer Wall Street internship experience between HS and college and ample mentoring he got from his bosses at the firm he interned. Thus, Chicago’s life of the mind mantra gave him all that he was looking for that he won’t find easily in other universities, while U Chicago’s short comings in pre-professional support was something that did not matter to him. Hence, personally, this worked out terrifically well for him. But I am very well aware that this does not apply to everybody.</p>

<p>Thinking through all this makes me really wonder why they have such a stringent policy for “a single point of entry” for this program and don’t provide any opportunity for the students who find their “calling” later than the beginning of the second year. This sounds very shorted sighted. </p>

<p>They are trying now to provide more support for students with ambitions in fields other than academics. I say, “kudos. keep on trying and improving various programs”. Based on what I read on this forum, it looks like they need to do a lot more on the pre med and pre law fronts also.</p>

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<p>yes, they won’t even release that stats on how successful uChicago students are at admission to law school (or make it very difficult to find out).</p>

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<p>This is a really interesting thread. I had no idea that Chicago undergrads (thru CCIB) could take (and are actually encouraged to take) classes at Booth. JHS said this and I think this needs to be reiterated: such a program is a huge, HUGE change for Chicago. </p>

<p>Honestly, in my day at Chicago, if you said you were going to take a class on financial accounting or marketing, your classmates would laugh at you. On tours, they specifically emphasized that Chicago doesn’t offer classes in “engineering, accounting, journalism, etc.” </p>

<p>Without doubt, all of the concerns relating to Chicago (not enough support for pre-professional students, lack of transparency with information, etc.) are merited. At the same time, people need to note that, unlike Harvard et al., Chicago’s goal for the college for 100 years was to produce scholars. For better or worse, the goal of the College was to train and produce scholars and critical thinkers and academics. Now, the training you receive in this regard certainly overlaps to the activities conducted in business or law or marketing. The latter fields, however, were seen as separate and distinct from the College’s mission.</p>

<p>As it seems as if the College is modulating its mission (or, at least, expanding away from its once narrow focus of training scholars), everyone needs to note that these changes take time. </p>

<p>For example, please note that Chicago only BEGAN emulating the selective admissions policies of its peers 3-4 years ago. Most top colleges have been engaging in big numbers recruiting and playing the admissions game for a couple decades at least. With just a few years on this track, Chicago has already made real strides on this front. </p>

<p>So, with regard to pre-professional advising, it seems as if some patience is required. At the same time, I do think kids should know what they are getting into with Chicago’s College. The key goal of the place, with exceptions such as CCIB aside, is to train scholars. The school is improving on the other fronts, but again, the core mission is still pretty distinct from Harvard or Princeton or Wharton, where the goal is more or less to reinforce the power elite.</p>

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<p>This looks like straight out of the playbook from Northwestern’s certificate program. ;)</p>