<p>nevermind...i found the answer in another thread.</p>
<p>ncstudent, your original question implied you were considering going to MBA straight after undergrad although you did not flat out say it. So no one is jumping on you. For the most part those who got in after undergrad had already run successful businesses as undergrads, that is the one common thread.</p>
<p>Let me put it bluntly (and I know nothing about MBAs): saw a recent TV program on the 100th anniversary of HBS. In a class, there was someone who had commanded a regiment or squad or whatever in Baghdad, another had worked on AIDS in Africa, others had business experience. What can you meaningfully say to them in class? That you had read about all this?</p>
<p>I just completed a BS in Psychology and now I am in an MBA program! I have never had a clue about business! But I have over 20 years of work experience. I imagine that you can make it if you at least have a goal in mind. Other than that, I would say why can't you get the work experience and go to school at the same time? Most people responding to you never brought up this scenario. The MBA program is very hard but I am hanging in there with a 3.8 now. I used to ditch math in high school regularly, so my math is terrible! I am going to finish my emphasis at UCLA! So if I can make it, and I am half way done, you can! Good luck! Marlon, Los Angeles</p>
<p>Many employers expect that MBA grads have several years of working experience otherwise they would just recruit at the undergraduate level.
Here's Toyota's recruitment for MBA summer interns.
Toyota.com</a> : Toyota College Relations : Graduate Programs : MBA Summer Internships</p>
<p>Note that they have a 4 year requirement for pre-MBA full time work experience.</p>
<p>well this seems like a very heated thread in my opinion! </p>
<p>I feel that the very "top" business schools are now encouraging all students, with or without work experience, to apply. I know my own school where I attend for undergrad does not allow anyone to apply without at least two years of work experience. It's my belief that that seems quite short-sighted and close-minded. Only you and you alone can decide what is right for you. </p>
<p>I have been recruited and been looking around at different jobs available to me upon graduation, all are good companies, but unfortunately none seem to inspire my passion for business or truly get to what I know I want to do. There are those that know what they want to do from day 1 and I think that it's a little generalist to assume that someone even as young as undergrad doesn't know what they want to do. There are people who have worked for decades and don't truly know what they want to do. Age, to me, is not a good representation of knowledge or self-awareness. </p>
<p>I will be applying to those "top" schools when I graduate from undergrad. The entry level jobs aforementioned are honestly disappointing to me. Top companies send you into "management training" jobs and try to mold you into a leader, without even considering your own experience in undergrad. Perhaps not at all schools, but at my own schools especially since it is so large, a leadership position is very similar to running a company. Being the President of a Greek organization of 200+ students and managing a $800,000 budget seems to me maybe even more responsibility than some of those entry level jobs. Leadership training can come in many forms and the "top" business schools I think are realizing this and keeping an open mind about their applicants.</p>
<p>Internships and ample experience in leadership positions is the best way to determine what sort of path you'd like to take when you graduate. Coming from a business curriculum in undergrad, I already have a lot of business knowledge which is rare for most b-school applicants considering most come from a liberal arts and sciences background. I am also graduating with a masters in international business before I complete my education and feel that I am truly ready to pursue a top MBA. Chances are I won't get in, but I will show my passion and my dedication to this endeavor. </p>
<p>True, it's not "recommended" to go to b-school directly from undergrad, but if you know what you want and are ready to go after it even with the preconceived knowledge of the challenges you may face, then shoot for the stars. In my understanding, those who do things not "recommended" and those who go against the grain sometimes end up blazing a new path for many more to follow. Although many are not ready to go head-to-head with people who have completed years of work experience, who's to say a fresh perspective (as HBS themselves states) cannot add to the classroom? Youth isn't always a bad things and I believe that it can encourage creative thinking and non-traditional ideals and view points.</p>
<p>In conclusion to this absurdly long post (sorry!), b-school is a personal decision. There are many opinions on it and a lot of previous research and facts on those admitted typically, but to me, there's nothing wrong straying from the usual path and trying to make your own. Just be ready for the unexpected and all of the challenges and sometimes negative feedback that may come with it.</p>
<p>Best of luck and thank you all for sharing your opinions!</p>
<p>Greek, you can convince yourself you're ready based on things like having run a frat, but the real convincing will come when you try to convince an employer to hire you instead of one of your classmates or those from peer schools that have hard core management experience.</p>
<p>In a thriving economy maybe you would get some decent offers, though I don't think you'd get a crack at the most in demand jobs. But in the economy we'll be looking at for awhile, I think it would be tough.</p>
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In a thriving economy maybe you would get some decent offers, though I don't think you'd get a crack at the most in demand jobs. But in the economy we'll be looking at for awhile, I think it would be tough.
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<p>Yeah, but I think that's an unfair way of looking at the matter. It's all relative. Sure, it may be tough to get a top job right out of an MBA program with no experience if the economy is bad. But frankly, it's tough for anybody to get a top job in a bad economy. Therefore, heading to a top MBA program right out of undergrad is probably a shrewd way of sitting the job market out until the economy recovers. Honestly - what else were you going to do? Take a mediocre entry-level job right out of undergrad, because that's all that available to you in a bad economy, and live in constant fear of being laid off or your company going bankrupt? I know quite a few people who entered the job market last year after graduation and have already been laid off - not even making it to the one year mark. Heck, I know some who were laid off before they even started - as the company rescinded all of its job offers. What made the situation even harsher is that they had already turned down their other offers.</p>
<p>The real question is therefore not whether you should go to an MBA right out of undergrad, but rather what's the alternative? I would agree that if you can get an exciting job with a strong company right out of undergrad, you should probably do that. But you probably don't have that choice in a bad economy. Heading to an MBA program immediately may therefore be the least bad option.</p>
<p>Whether you can actually get in is a different question entirely. However, I have seen people of rather questionable abilities and no work experience who nevertheless somehow managed to get admitted to top MBA programs such as HBS. True, it's not a lot, but there are some. If you can be one of those people, you should probably take it.</p>
<p>I know a guy who went right out of undergrad. Real charming person, but rather hot headed about his abilities. It's the type of attitude that gets you gentlemen Cs and a request to leave the school, which he did. He somehow got into a pretty decent MBA program right out of undergrad, we all thought he changed his tune after having to transfer from his prestigious undergrad.</p>
<p>After receiving his MBA he was angered that everywhere he went, looking for a job, he was turned down for lack of experience. For about a year we listened to him **** and moan about it. He eventually resigned to take a job that was "beneath him" and never really amounted to much. His attitude was so sour by the way he lead his life and towards MBAs, including himself. "Worthless degree" he still mutters when he sees me getting mine.</p>
<p>Best of Luck</p>
<p>I don't think you can blame the MBA program for that. If somebody's a firecracker before the program, he's going to be a firecracker afterwards. No school can change that. </p>
<p>However, that does speak to one problem that many MBA students have, particularly nowadays - their expectations are simply too high. A better attitude to have is to not actually expect to get any of the top-flight jobs, but to try for them anyway. That way, you will never be disappointed because you never expected anything. </p>
<p>I certainly agree that one major problem with not only MBA programs but any schooling in general is that they may actually make you less employable, not more, by instilling the belief that a wider range of jobs is now beneath you. To quote Sowell "...Whether the positive human capital they receive in educational institutions is sufficient to offset this growth in negative human capital is ultimately an empirical question and depends in part on whether their education has been in fields with practical applications or in easier and more speculative subjects."</p>
<p>On Cousin Eddie from "Christmas Vacation"...</p>
<p>Ellen: "Well, he's been out of work for close to seven years."
Clark: "In seven years, he couldn't find a job?"
Ellen: "Cathrine says, he's been holding out for a management position."</p>
<p>I can totally get that the economy is crap, but in the end, I truly believe that there are jobs out there for people who will take them even if they are not what they were expecting. I will be entering the job market and hoping for an international job after graduation or after I finish my MBA. Most US-based companies make you wait years to enter the international market after undergrad, but with the magic ticket of an MBA they will gladly send you off. I don't know where my path will end up, but I have some sort of general plan that I will be trying to follow. It's a crazy time right now for everyone, but its exciting in a way to be part of a time where your economy is rebuilding and innovation and creative problem-solving is at a high. I believe it's these people who are able to stand out with unique talents and fresh perspectives that will end up at MBA's after undergrad or at good jobs. I am not claiming at all to be one of these students, but I certainly can aspire to be one. I feel that with a positive outlook on all of it and a passion for what I want to do, I will be armed with the best possible weapons in this time. I'm realizing that more so than experience, adaptability and resourcefulness is key right now. I can't change the fact that I haven't worked, but I can strengthen my resume and myself in those areas and hope for the best. Many top MBA schools have a great option of deferred admission and some will look at your application and admit you, but after 1-2 years of work experience for college seniors. As many before me have said, it can't hurt to try, and if you don't try, you'll never know! </p>
<p>Thanks for all the advice, this whole forum is very enlightening and I'm enjoying gaining some wisdom from you all!</p>
<p>are students coming straight from undergrad, with several internship experiences, really that much less prepared than the "career-change" MBA students at top programs who worked in purely technical positions before business school that had nothing to do with business? by stating that straight-from-undergrad students are not competitive for the "best" jobs (say for example a job a McKinsey) at graduation, are you implying the same for these career change MBA students?</p>
<p>that's what I was ( sort of ) getting at. most people entering a top MBA program are from a liberal arts/sciences background. I think business undergrad students who have had a lot of leadership experience and internship experience are sometimes more prepared and qualified to enter into a top MBA program after undergrad than some of the older applicants, even though they may have been working in various fields for a while. having just come out of your business education is very beneficial in that the knowledge is fresh and new. so I don't see why an undergrad student with a lot of experience and a strong business background cannot be on the same level as someone who has never had formal business education.</p>
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I think business undergrad students who have had a lot of leadership experience and internship experience are sometimes more prepared and qualified to enter into a top MBA program after undergrad than some of the older applicants
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<p>Based on what? Your own experience, which is nil. Your posts on this matter show how wet behind the ears you truly are. Sorry, not trying to troll.</p>
<p>Personally, I don't know how to judge preparedness and I really doubt that you do. President of a frat and a business education doesn't necessarily indicate success within an MBA program. The MBA is not a continuation of your undergrad, if anything it will just repeat what you already know. This why people with technical backgrounds, and those outside of business, pursue MBAs; to marry what they know with business. I don't see how marrying business with business will accomplish anything. </p>
<p>Someone with operations experience, no matter what the field, can at least see areas to bring and create value. That's why it's nice to have this experience prior to going for your MBA. In addition to the networking exposure you will certainly have moments of clarity that would otherwise remain shrouded.</p>
<p>Again, I don't judge readiness for business school, but those who do are very clear on what they look for. All I am trying to drive home is the idea that an MBA shouldn't be used to remain in academia while hiding from the real world. An MBA should be used to remove barriers and seek to add value to your career and profession. When you don't have experience you will not be doing this. Thus, if you are going to pursue an MBA right out of undegrad be certain on how you draw value from the education and how you will be able to create value with it.</p>
<p>What do you think of MBA following engineering BS with co-ops/internships? Okay to do directly or need more work experience first?</p>
<p>More experienced due to the fact that they understand business procedures and have worked in a business environment. There are people who apply to receive their MBA who have worked in academia, military affairs, computers, and elsewhere that don't know anything about economics, accounting, business marketing, and much more. This is what I meant by more qualified because honestly, I would probably see a lot of repeat information and therefore could possibly do better than someone who has never had formal business education in their life and must learn it so much later on. I am not saying I am "God of MBA admissions", obviously my willingness to listen and learn from advice on this forum shows that. I am simply saying that I truly believe that an extension of your business knowledge could help ANY business major. From the networking aspect of an MBA to the training they provide in the classrooms in the format of team projects and case studies, an MBA is valuable to any student and that includes business undergrads. </p>
<p>An entry-level management training job is sometimes less challenging and valuable to a student than their experiences during undergrad from leadership positions (not just a "frat") to internships. An MBA opens up a lot of doors, as I have stated before. Many companies would not send an entry-level worker abroad, yet with an MBA they will gladly assign those tasks to you even if your abilities in the language or field are fairly the same. I truly believe there are students who are advanced, experienced, and mature enough to bypass entry-level jobs and it is those students that would gain a lot of value from an MBA. Why waste time on the bottom rung number crunching and doing gopher sales work if you could be expanding and enhancing your potential in an MBA program? Also, maybe going against the traditional norms is what needs to be done right now. There are bright and brilliant students ready to take on the world, if given the chance. So what if someone is as you say "inexperienced"? Isn't the point of education to learn from others' experiences? To listen to the mistakes made, the challenges met, the achievements accomplished so that you, yourself, can learn and not make those mistakes, know how to face those challenges, and strive for those achievements? It's the passion and the new ideas that undergrads and young professionals can bring to MBA's that I believe can be just as beneficial and enlightening as some of the older professionals' experiences. I may be inexperienced, but I do have an open mind that is willing to listen and learn. Experience is very important, but knowledge and passion can overcome the lack of experience. I am not saying at all I am one of those students, but as I stated before, I certainly should be able to strive to be one. I am here to share my opinions and get advice, not be chided for it. =)</p>
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<p>Your post above shows a total lack of maturity. If you have never gone through the process of job interviews and being selected for a job what makes you think you will be more employable with the extra 3 letters behind your name? </p>
<p>I’d work for a few years simply because you’ll learn and develop perspectives about yourself, what you truly value, plus life experience that comes with being a responsible working professional. Never discount that kind of life experience.
Avoid the trap of being over-credentialed and under-experienced – kids collect credentials like gold stars; adults gain experience that allows for perspective and hopefully wisdom.</p>
<p>To get into an MBA school you have to write in your essays explaining who you are, why you need an MBA, and why an MBA from that school is the logical next step. I doubt you can convey that successfully.</p>
<p>^ I completely agree.</p>
<p>^^ I agree too.</p>
<p>I had three years of work experience (top tier firm management consulting) when I started at Kellogg in '97 (was also accepted at UCLA and Stanford)…I was among the youngest students in my class. There was one student in my section with just a year of work experience…she was a nice girl, but completely out of her element. She had been admitted straight from undergrad, but worked as an engineer for a year and then started. She was quite honestly not someone people sought out to have in their groups…she didn’t contribute much. Also, I remember talking to her around graduation in our second year and I was surprised at how she had approached her job hunt and where she had ended up. She wasn’t happy about it, but admitted she’d been less than strategic about her approach.</p>
<p>oldcmcalum: how did work experience improve your group experience at Kellogg? I know when I did cases an undergraduate, it was pretty much useless as you can’t really determine if your ideas are feasible in the real world. They would look good on paper, but if you had work experience, I think it’d definitely help you determine whether it was a really good recommendation or was just fluff. </p>
<p>Is this the type of extra knowledge or contribution having work experience provides?</p>