Business School Wars

Student Lounge International Students
21

<p>I’m not trashing McGill; McGill is a great school, my brother is a McGill grad and he’s been extremely successful, and McGill deserves much of it’s strong reputation. However, it is simply wrong to state that McGill is on a level with Queen’s and Ivey for business. It’s misleading. A student might chose to go to McGill instead of Ivey or Queen’s, but they should know they are likely giving up some career opportunities. If they are ok with that, all the power to 'em. But they should understand that that is what they are doing.</p>

<p>FYI I’m not “Ontario centric” I’m actually from BC.</p>

22

<p>Ontario-centric views dominate forums and get repeated by students who have no personal knowledge and fail to do proper research & fact-checking (reading posts from other forums do not constitute fact checking btw). Does not mean you personally are from Ontario. </p>

<p>It is rather far-fetched and misleading to tell people they are giving up ‘career opportunities’ if they go to one Canadian undergrad program over another. If you are talking about Harvard or Wharton, I might agree with you. Canadian undergrad programs ? Give me a break. I understand Queen’s is a virtual unknown around the world - wherein do people ‘give up’ career opportunities by not going to Queen’s ? Stop the silliness.</p>

<p>Some people have an unrealistic inflated view of certain Ontario schools over others. Pity.</p>

23

<p>This is going in circles: let’s just look at the facts.</p>

<ol>
<li>Queen’s commerce grads have a higher average salary.</li>
<li>Queen’s commerce grads place more in the most competitive industries (IE: consulting)</li>
<li>Queen’s commerce has a more loyal and developed alumni network. One can look at alumni hiring trends for evidence of this.</li>
<li>Queen’s commerce is more selective.*</li>
<li>More recruiters come to Queen’s, and these recruiters hire more from Queen’s.</li>
<li>McGill has faced significant financial and political difficulty in the recent past; this has lead many top students to shy away from attending.</li>
<li>Quebec itself exists in political flux: charter of values, referendum, ect.</li>
</ol>

<p>I already linked the respective career reports of both Queen’s and McGill. These stats are released by the respective universities. That is the evidence, or fact checking, you keep requesting.</p>

<p>Have more people heard of McGill than Queen’s? Probably. But if the reason you picked a university was so that random Americans would know where you went to school and be mildly impressed (if that) you made a poor choice indeed. </p>

<p>You might call my view “unrealistic and inflated” but my view comes from the simple numbers, facts and data that is presented to me. </p>

<p>Is their a difference between the quality of Canadian undergrad programs? Of course there is… Would you rather go to Brock or McGill? UBC or Uvic? Ivey or Guelph? Obviously the differences between these various programs are more extreme than that of McGill vs QC, but nonetheless differences exist. </p>

<p>Based on the career reports of these schools, we can conclude that employers clearly prefer Queen’s and Ivey grads to McGill, Rotman or Laurier grads. This is just objectively true. So do “some people have an unrealistic inflated view of certain Ontario schools over others”? Maybe; but those people are called employers, and their opinion matters.</p>

<p>McGill is by no means a bad school, but please don’t draw false equivalencies hat might lead kids to make a decision they regret.</p>

24

<p>*I put an asterisk by selectivity because it is very hard to compare the selectivity of these schools. McGill has a higher entrance average for out of province students, but they accept internats and CEGEPs at lower standards. Also, Queen’s weights the supplementary app as more than half your application, whereas McGill is purely grade based. However, the acceptance rate for Queen’s is objectively lower than that of McGill.</p>

25

<p>

[quote]
“The schools also differ in what they include in the starting salaries & ‘employment’ statistics, and I understand its not readily apparent from the published numbers what the differences between the schools really amount to.”</p>

<p>No one other than you are drawing “equivalencies” here. I said that there are different pros and cons in each school and each student will select the factors that are important to him or her. What ‘equivalencies’ ? I wonder why such a simple idea would cause someone to launch into an attack of McGill and make unfounded spurious claims about the school. Odd indeed. Enough nonsense. </p>

26

<p>I’ve acknowledged the merits of McGill university enough times so far that I don’t think it can be said I am “launching into an attack.”</p>

<p>Still, I think it’s indicative of the state of McGill that you, years after graduation, are so militant and aggressive in you defense of the school, to some kid on the internet.</p>

27

<p>pathetic.</p>

28

<p>@jimmycanuck I need to correct a few of your points. My son went to Mcgill and absolutely loved it. He was at Desautels. I do not believe for a minute that McGill is easier on international students, as he had several friends with top grades who did not get in (we are from the US) and these same kids who didn’t get in to McGill got into very competitive schools in the US, so speaking from experience you are absolutely wrong on that point. Second, he and his friends, many who are international, LOVE the school. My son’s grades were almost perfect and he could have transferred into an IVY in the US but had no desire to. So, maybe the kids are just having too much fun to waste their time “raving” about their school like the Queens kids do (and I speak without bias because he didn’t even apply to Queens…as a matter of fact, I don’t think many in the US have ever heard of it or it does not get much recognition here. With that being said, I am sure they are all good schools but to put down McGill is not fair since we in the US have only heard great things.</p>

29

<p>^singita and palebluesky, your arguments are ridiculous. Nobody is “attacking” McGill. Outside of their Commerce program, they’re a well regarded university. But to say that they’re on par with Queen’s or Ivey because some students have a good time partying there, and some uninformed Americans have heard of the school’s name is ridiculous. Queen’s and Ivey have vastly superior recruitment, both in the US and Canada. Queen’s and Ivey are also much more selective, and in general, they have much more successful and supportive alumni. They are better schools according to all objective criteria.</p>

30

<p>@linkedin: I think we are going around in circles, lol. You are just going on about the same old stuffy boring points that all students repeat. Sometimes I wonder if its some marketing ploy certain schools use on these forums - cuz they all repeat exactly the same old thing.
The point I was making is that there is really no objective standard by which we measure which university is the “best”. I understand you cannot see that point of view. May be it has to do with age and experience, I don’t know. Different people will have different criteria. To me, the McGill Business program is the best because
(a) I want the maximum exposure to a diverse group of International students on campus and in my business program - I interact everyday with students from France, England, China, Asia , Germany, Switzerland, Russia, the U.S.-- McGill can offer me the best;
(b) I want to work outside of Canada after I graduate and from speaking with executives and HR Depts around the world, McGill is the best choice (definitely not Queens, no one has heard of it);
© I want to have access to specialized Business programs that the other business schools do not offer, such as Integrated Business Studies, Major in International Business Program, study & work internationally and get to do a double major in Finance on top of that - McGill is the best choice;
(d) I want to live in a cultured city with European old world charm with lots of major art galleries, new music, classical and jazz music, great cafes and urban living - McGill in Montreal is the best; I am steeped in French Canadian culture at its BEST;
(e) I want to be able to speak French in an environment where it is natural for residents to speak French with me - McGill in Montreal is the best;
(f) I want to go to an exciting Business school without a boring stuffy structured program in first year that pins you down to taking the standard pre-set 101 business courses, because I want to grow as a vibrant socially connected person - McGill gives me the most exciting options in first year to expand my mind while also being a Business school major;
(g) I want to go to a Business school that offers me an exciting dynamic faculty that encourages me to think creatively and not just in the business sense, but to connect business studies with history,social sciences, philosophy, social entrepreneurship within a Global perspective - McGill is THE BEST .
Hey linkedin, guess what, I can go on and on with another 10 more reasons WHY MCGILL IS ABSOLUTELY THE BEST BUSINESS SCHOOL . Thanks !</p>

31

<p>I should also add that in meeting & speaking with graduates of the McGill Business School program at Desautels, they are a highly successful, vibrant and dynamic bunch of business professionals. You get to network with a truly International Alumni - from every corner of the world. McGill offers the best as far as I am concerned. I wouldn’t want to be stuck in Queens in that boring small town, Kingston where its cold and grey for 8 months with nothing to do. I guess its a personal preference. Reputation wise, McGill really is the best everywhere you go. </p>

32

<p>You sound delusional palebluesky. Keep ignoring the facts, it’s your loss.</p>

33

<p>@linkedin: hm, what a curious way to reply to a positive comment by attacking someone personally.<br>
My comment was simply listing personal reasons why McGill Desautels is a great school. What is wrong with that ? Why would you attack me as being ‘delusional’ etc.? Why is there a need to do this at all ?<br>
I am reminded of a dirty old trick: if you cannot attack the message, you try to discredit the messenger !<br>
Truly pathetic.<br>
I wasn’t even speaking about any other school - just expressing my positive experience with McGill Desautels. What is so wrong that it would warrant a personal insult ?
I have noticed that you and a few others are quite dictatorial about allowing only one university to be proclaimed the “best” business school, which frankly is extremely narrow-minded, biased and smacks of advertising/paid marketing/propaganda.
I’ve noticed similar wording being repeated in other student forums under different screen names. Strange.
As I have always said, there are several excellent business schools in Canada, with McGill Desautels being one of them. Personal preferences, career and life goals, and other subjective factors will determine which school will be best suited to each student. This view is highly reflective of what CEOs, recruitment offices and top-notch academic advisers have all told me. In fact, not one of them has ever said that only one school is the best. </p>

34

<p>Hopefully (for Queen’s Business sake) linkedin is not their typical student. </p>

35

I just finished my first semester at Queen’s, and I thought I would weigh in one last time.

Some of the benefits that Palebluesky lists for McGill are legitimate criteria. It is not inherently irrational to pick a school on the basis of the city it’s in, and who are we kidding, Montreal > Kingston. That said, I would offer the idea that while I might not want to live in Kingston after I graduate, it is a great student city. Unlike Montreal, Kingston is set up to appeal to students as they are the largest market, which means that things like clubs and housing are cheaper. Montreal is a nicer, bigger, city and as a result, it’s more expensive. You pay a premium to live in Montreal, the same way you do to live in Vancouver or Toronto or New York. Other than that, pointing out that Kingston is cold and grey is a bit silly. So is Montreal.

Now, some of the things he says are a bit silly. “I want to speak French”? Really? Montreal is an English city, and if you go up to locals and try and spark a conversation with your limited french skills they will reply in English. I’m a French speaker and have a clean accent, and I don’t even bother speaking French. Your going to be hanging out with other students at an English speaking University. Believe me, you will never speak French at McGill. Also… who cares?

Anyone who tells you there is a Canadian school that is going to help you get hired internationally clearly doesn’t understand industry hiring practices. Immigration laws mean that firms hire citizens of their domestic office. It just isn’t worth it for them not to, as they have to justify their hiring a non-citizen, something that is pretty hard with a recent graduate. The way people end up working international is generally that they are hired, spend a few years with a firm, said firm finances grad school, and then they might work international. McGill’s international placement numbers just come from the fact that they accept more international students, not because American firms are clamoring to hire Canadian McGill grads.

There’s a weird focus on being international that Universities, particularly the business faculties, have. I think it’s silly, but High-School kids tend to get caught up in it. Don’t. Focus on the opportunities a school provides, not unsupported claims of being international.

Now, if you want a good international experience, Queen’s has the best exchange program in Canada, and 85% of Commerce participates. That is the best tangible example of real “internationalism.”

Choosing Desaultels of QC is not inherently a bad decision, but for the most part, PaleBlueSky offers really shitty reasons to pick a school. Focus on the opportunities that a school offers, the program structure, and the sort of support you will get. Not buzzwords like “internationalism.”

36

That comment got really long, so I’m going to get into my experience at Queen’s here.

I loved my first semester. My residence is great, my floor is tight knit, I’ve found great housing with a great bunch of guys, and I love Queen’s, and have developed a degree of fondness for Kingston.

Queen’s is very much a community, the parties and social life is great, and the extracurricular are awesome. QSB is also really tight knit, and Goodes hall is an amazing building, with a ton of space and resources. Academically, I love the program. All of my profs (but one) are great. The accessibility of Profs, TAs and the like is amazing, and being able to get in touch with a prof is something that will be incredibly helpful academically. QSB clearly has a ton of resources, and makes good use of them. Classes are small, topping out at 70 students, meaning you actually get to participate.

Extracurricular allow you to get involved by both organizing and participating in events.I’m the frosh rep for one association myself. Industry leaders like Arlene Dickinson frequently speak at these events, not to mention the networking and the fact they are a good time (free alcohol!).

I already have one placement arranged at a global corporate services firm (not big four), and am working with the careers office when I get back to make a few more options.

One thing PBS points out is true: the prescribed nature of QC means that you have limited options to explore other interests. I would have like a few electives. However, the advantage of this is that QC students get far better early year placements then their counterparts at Ivey or Desautels, since they already have much more business specific knowledge. There are pros and cons to the QC system. What you value more is really up to the student.

To sum up, as objectively as possible, what came up in this thread.

QC offers

  1. Tight knit community both with Queen's and the school of business due to smaller size.
  2. Student city
  3. Better early year placements due to program structure.
  4. More recruitment, better opportunists, and better placement, as objectively show by the employment reports posted above (this wasn't disputed).
  5. Most developed international exchange program in Canada.
  6. Smaller class sizes, better Academic support, teaching emphasis in faculty
  7. University itself, and QSB has more money, isn't in financial trouble, lacks infamous bureaucracy

McGill offers:

  1. Larger, more diverse student body
  2. Greater international reputation as a university (that is not as recognized by employers)
  3. Better city

Now, it isn’t inherently wrong to decide that YOU prefer McGill to QC. But as a program, in terms of resources, opportunities, and support, QC is objectively the better option. Don’t get caught in the hype of prestige or internationalism. Make a decision based on what you value, and the opportunities that you will be afforded. Get your information from objective data (not from me or PBS). Research the program structures. What appeals to you? Do ou want a bigger, more diverse student body, or a smaller, more tight knit community? Talk to your friends, find you their experiences.

I’m not a McGill student. I don’t know what being at the school is like first-hand. All I know is what my brother (a McGill grad) and friends tell me.

What I can tell you is that Queen’s is a phenomenal experience, and I strongly recommend iit.

37

Does QSB have grade deflation?

38

No. The average is around a B+ and the workload is very manageable. Plus, with the support offered by Queen’s in terms of tutoring, office hours, etc. high grades are very achievable. That said, Profs are aiming to keep the class average at that B+, so if students are doing very well leading up to the final, you know the final is going to be rough.

Also, it is up to you to leverage those resources that Queen’s offers. The students who do best at Queen’s are the ones who go to every work session, office hours, etc.

39

Its really going beyond concerning that Queen’s business school students just cannot handle anyone saying there are other equally good and worthy undergrad business schools in Canada. They have to put you down personally and insult you, if you even suggest another school is just as good. For me personally, I would hate to adopt that narrow minded frog-in-the-well attitude, lol.

Other considerations ofcourse is
(1) not even business school professors and CEOs agree on any one single school as being “the best” in Canada. The consensus is there is no such thing - it all depends on what your personal set of criteria may be. All have said that amongst the top 3 - 5 undergrad programs (Desautels at McGill, Queens, Ivy at Western, U of T, Schulich at York - some also include UBC), you have got to choose based on your own set of factors and goals etc. Each school presents its own set of strengths and weaknesses. And yes, there are weaknesses at Queen’s, no matter how much kool aid you’ve drank.
(2) I’ve been told that Queen’s is well known regionally within Ontario, based on my research. Many from other parts of Canada such as in Western Canada (British Columbia or Alberta) have honestly not heard of Queen’s before.
(3) Outside of Canada, one may be hard pressed to find many who have heard of Queen’s business in Ontario, Certainly not in Europe or Asia, I don’t think. I hear some selected firms in New York City do know but not always the case in many other parts of the U.S., based on my research. I’ve spoken to top executives and recruiters in major cities in Asia, and many do not know much or anything about Queen’s. McGill, Western, U of T, UBC - all definitely highly regarded.

Lastly, you make your own learning and work experience. You make things happen because you are motivated and passionate. All these top schools I have named provide everything that one will need to succeed in Canada. I personally know many unemployed graduates from Ivy and Queen’s who have been struggling - from all the so-called top schools actually. I also know highly successful executives who graduated from much smaller less well-known schools but they seem to be doing even better than those who came out of the top schools.

If you are an international student, you have got to do your own research and make sure any Canadian school you are considering will be well-known and well regarded in your home country. Also research notable successful graduates of the school in your home country - is there a strong network there ? Any mentoring program from alumni in your home country or where you want to work after graduation ? I’m told for instance that in many parts of Europe, no one has heard of Queen’s business school and they are not aware of an alumni networking group there. I could be wrong.

When I first started this process, I read the same stuff year after year from the Queen’s students praising their own school who seem to dominate in many forums. After doing my own independent research and talked to actual industry executives, my perspective has completely changed.

Its not so much that what the Queen’s students are saying are not necessarily true about their school - its just that there are other schools that are just as good academically, but that offer new innovative programs, different approaches/global perspectives, dynamic learning opportunities etc… To me, Queen’s offers a fairly conservative standard business program, but its not everyone’s cup of tea. I personally don’t believe that approach is where the business world is heading in the next several years globally. Anyway, do your own independent research and widen your perspective - don’t be too narrow-minded. Cheers !

40

By the way, jimmycanuck’s list of what McGill has to offer shows just how little he really knows about McGill and the Desautels Business program !

By his own admission, he knows NOTHING about the school first hand yet he proceeded to offer a paltry list of 3 irrelevant items, none of which speaks to the business school’s excellent inspiring programs, integrative business studies, international business programs, renowned Finance program, innovative courses, great professors and dynamic learning community, superb student development, excellent business clubs with lots of executive opportunities, international and global exposure, international network of alumni, solid placements/ recruitment and range of available opportunities throughout the year etc.

If you’re going to purport to make a comparison between two schools, at least do some honest solid independent research first. Lets just hope this is not your typical Queen’s business student way of making fair comparisons, lol. You’re so biased its laughable, jimmycanuck !