Buying Your Way Into College

<p>First, where I stand: We receive substantial financial aid (although my son also was granted substantial merit scholarships at three other colleges). And I agree with rockvillemom:

I do not agree that Lafalum’s comments were meanspirited and I think they are remarkably accurate.</p>

<p>Second, where I sit: I see no problem with colleges taking into account the financial needs of their applicants because the income that full or part-pay students generate helps pay the bills. I don’t think even Harvard could afford to accept all full need applicants.</p>

<p>Years ago I went to a college admissions program where the speaker kept saying that no college is truly need-blind. I think there are a few, but there are a lot of questions on the Common App that can give admissions people a sense of whether the student is likely to need financial aid. I think the mistake that some colleges made, years ago, was to try and out-aid their competitors for certain students. There are colleges that meet full-need to international students, that meet full-need without loans, and ones that use a different baseline for need, i.e. HYP. They can’t all compete with HYP for students, so they do the best that they can with the $$ that they have. The elites lose applicants all the time to “lesser” schools, whether they be public unis or privates, where the COA is less because those schools give merit aid. I don’t see the problem of giving merit aid to applicants who merit it, regardless of their financial status.</p>

<p>Brandeis’ approach to being “partially need-aware” (see post #48^) is interesting, and at first glance it seems eminently fair. But on further reflection I’m troubled by some aspects of it. Great for the kids with need who get their full need met. (Great for them also to know that they weren’t at the very bottom of the admit pool, because those places are occupied by full-pays). But from the sounds of it, once the FA money runs out, Brandeis simply bars the door to any more applicants with ANY level of need. That could be $100, or $1,000, or $10,000, or $40,000 of need. But that seems a little harsh. What about the applicant with $100 of need, who surely could find a way to get by; maybe the parents would agree to eat tuna casserole instead of fresh fish on Fridays. Or the kid with $1,000 of need who would be willing to take out a modest loan? Or the kid with $10,000 of need for whom Brandeis has always been his dream school, who would sacrifice a lot (extra loans?) and for whom Mom & Dad would sacrifice a lot (maybe one of them takes a part-time second job, elevating family income to the point where there would be no “need” in years 2-4?) to get their kid into Brandeis? Or maybe Grandma, whose finances are not considered in the EFC calculation, would be willing to fork over part of it if it meant getting little Jimmy into Brandeis. Some schools "gap’ many or even most of their applicants, yet many of the “gapped” find ways to dig a little deeper and make it work. But the applicants to Brandeis don’t even get to make those choices. And it’s not clear they’re better off for it; they might very well end up being “gapped” at some other, lesser schools, and end up having to make the same hard choices about how to pay for it, when given the choice they might well have chosen to make a go of it at Brandeis.</p>

<p>So why does Brandeis insist on slamming the door on them? Well, I can think of a few reasons. First, Brandeis wants to protect its yield so as to protect its selectivity; likely they get a lower yield on “gapped” kids than on full-pays and on applicants whose need is fully met. To me, that’s a pretty shabby reason to deny a kid an opportunity to try to make it work. Second, by going partially need-aware in just the way it does, Brandeis guarantees it won’t have students griping internally or externally about Brandeis’ lousy FA, or about unfairness in FA awards—you either get full need or you don’t get admitted, and if you’re in the latter group you’ll think it’s because you didn’t make the cut academically. And there’s some truth to that—kids with need who don’t get in because they’re considered only after FA has run out are, by definition, toward the bottom of the admit pool; it’s just that the threshold for admission is set higher for kids with need than for full-pays. Third, Brandeis may not want to signal to those they “gap” that they’re at the bottom of the applicant pool, i.e., that Brandeis didn’t want them as much as the other 90% of kids with need, to whom it awarded full financial need. That would be a discouraging message: not only are you not getting any money, but we didn’t really want you as much as we wanted most of your classmates. That could ruin your whole day. Or your whole college career.</p>

<p>And just how big an advantage is it to be a full-pay under Brandeis’ system? Well, it depends on how far their FA goes, but the full-pay advantage could be huge. Suppose they can fill up 90% of their class before the FA budget runs out. Sounds pretty good right? Only a few extra full-pays get in at the bottom of the class? Well, it’s more than meets the eye. Brandeis gets about 7,000 applicants and accepts about 2,800 (=40% admit rate) to fill just under 800 places in its entering class (=28.6% yield). According to US News, 70% of Brandeis freshmen applied for need-based financial aid, and 58% were determined to have need. If it were need-blind, Brandeis could just rank order those 7000 applicants into deciles, 700 per decile, and offer admission to the top 4 deciles in order to fill its class. But using the Brandeis method, they’ll run out of FA somewhere around the middle of the 4th decile, around 2,517 admits, the number they need to get to 720 enrolled (90% of the total class). To get in with need, then, you need to be in the top 35.9% of applicants (2,517/7,000). The remaining 10% of the class, 80 chairs, will be filled by full-pays who fall below the 35.9% cut-off for applicants with need. But assuming yield is constant at 28.9%, they’ll need to offer admission to 280 full-pays to fill those 80 places. Just how deep does that take you? Well, it’s not clear whether they throw out all the remaining applicants who applied for FA (i.e., 70% of the remaining applicants), or only those whom they’ve already determined have need (58%). Assume the latter. That means they toss out 2,600 applications from kids with need, leaving a pool of 1,883 full-pays, of whom 280 will get offers of admission. If you do all the math, then (which I’ll spare you here), they’ll have offered admission to 45.0% of the full-pay applicants, but only 35.9% of the applicants with need. That’s a HUGE admissions advantage for full-pays who barely need to be in the top half of the applicant pool to be admitted, while applicants with need are borderline if they’re in the top third. (More precisely, applicants with need to be at the midway point of the 4th decile or higher, while full-pays need only be at the midway point of the 5th decile or higher). And that’s assuming they’re filling only the bottom 10% of the class with full-pays, and that once FA runs out they’re rejecting only those they determine don’t have need, and not simply taking a short-cut and throwing out everyone who applied for FA; in that latter case, the disparity would be even greater.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Being an URM, an athlete, a NMF are all things that the student is, paying full tuition is what the parent does. </p>

<p>We applied to a mix of colleges, a few of which we could afford full pay. I’m sure my son was a more attractive candidate to those schools. I don’t know why I should be defensive about that.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>My, my, very defensive, aren’t we?</p>

<p>As I’ve already stated, at some colleges we would have been full pay, at others we would have qualified for FA and still others my son qualified for merit aid. </p>

<p>Perhaps it’s because we found ourselves in so many different situations that I am able to see what an advantage full pay can be and the difference between what my son brought to the table verses what his father and I brought to the table. </p>

<p>Of course, I had absolutely no hard feelings about being full pay and it never would have occurred to me to throw out a “you’re welcome” at families that can not afford to be full pay. </p>

<p>How very rude and unkind.</p>

<p>^But I think you have to take into account the tone of the thread. It takes awhile to get used to. Just like the affirmative action thing.</p>

<p>Hey, take a look at the stats on who actually pays income tax these days.</p>

<p>You’re welcome.</p>

<p>Local doc in town (one of those saintly types you just don’t seem to meet anymore) gets a “beloved by his patients” award every year from the local hospital. Every year he gives a variant of the same speech- he thanks “all of you” who paid his med school tuition via a Federal program which required him work in an underserved medical community after he graduated. It’s a nice and humble way to recognize that each and every one of us is a beneficiary of someone else’s generosity. </p>

<p>I went to college in the '70’s and benefited from both private donors to my college, and from the extremely generous tax payers of the United States who guaranteed my private loans from Manufacturers Hanover Bank. (who remembers Manny Hanny?) And a generation later my kids were full pay. And we were so grateful to have finally finished paying off our loans so that we could save to pay tuition for our kids. Our parents did what they could- and we were grateful for that as well.</p>

<p>It’s a slippery slope once you start counting heads at your kids college and deciding who is worthy of your full pay largesse and who should be using the back door.</p>

<p>Play nice.</p>

<p>

Your logic is flawed.
Being a first-generation college student is what the parent is.
Being a legacy is what the parent is.
Being a URM is what the parent is, because the student is the child of the parent.</p>

<p>^Blossom, you’re ignorant.
The vast majority of financial aid that goes to low-income students is from the university, a small portion of which comes from the tax payer.
The full-payer students are subsidizing the education of students receiving FA.</p>

<p>I don’t think ANY of those things can be separated into neat bundles. No ONE of those alone, is getting you into a need-blind-full-need-met situation.</p>

<p>It’s complicated.</p>

<p>RVM, interesting article, thanks for posting.The idea of capping merit aid at some level–at half tuition, or at a level similar to costs at an in-state public–is far more reasonable than the idea of entirely eliminating merit aid. For consistency, I’d like to see that matched by similar caps on non-need-based athletic scholarships. </p>

<p>bclintonk, thanks for running through a possible analysis of where the cutoff in ranking occurs for where full-pay becomes a significant advantage for a Brandeis-style need-aware admissions metric. Brandeis of course wants to admit as high a caliber of student as possible, so it hurts them too if they bypass higher quality students who have need in favor of others who can pay. Maybe they allow for some slight gapping. Or maybe they adjust the expected family contribution upwards slightly–by $100, or $1000–for students who will then be full pay. </p>

<p>As for the cases where a student is $10k or more short per year, but would borrow to make the dream school possible–it’s an ethical tossup. Brandeis might be denying those students so that they can keep up their yield, AND say that they meet full need. They might also deny rather than gap because they don’t want students taking on enormous debt loads. </p>

<p>I wonder if colleges could knock of, say, $1k a year from COA with small lifestyle-esque cutbacks. Turn down the thermostats to 68. Use less expensive ingredients in dining halls. Don’t have the service dogs and puppies and warm cookies used to help reduce stress around finals. Promote a sense of shared austerity. Save the full-pay families a little scratch, and cut down on what’s needed for need-based aid as well. Win-win! </p>

<p>Re cake: I have some fabulous chocolate cake here if anyone would like to eat some. :)</p>

<p>OK folks, I apologize. “You’re welcome” wasn’t meant to be mean-spirited. It was meant to point out that full-pay families aren’t just benefitting their own kid or the college - without full-pay families, a lot of other kids wouldn’t be able to attend college either.</p>

<p>We are both a full pay family and an FA family. We received FA for the one year both of our kids were in college. I, too, have filled out the forms. For three years I have watched as FAFSA returned a result that our EFC was just barely higher than the cost of attendance at my S’s school - in other words, we made the LEAST money we could and still not qualify for a penny of aid. </p>

<p>I don’t mind paying full price. It’s our choice to send our kid to a pricey school and pay for it. We made sacrifices to do that, but again - its our choice.</p>

<p>I don’t begrudge anyone FA. </p>

<p>I was responding to a perception that there is somehow something inherently wrong with being able to pay full price for your kid to go to college, like we inherited unearned money or stole it from someone. Neither is true.</p>

<p>And I was responding to the title of this thread, implying that our hard work, savings, and choice not to spend money on other things somehow translated into “buying” my kids acceptance into college. As if their GPAs, ECs, and test scores had nothing to do with it.</p>

<p>I did not buy my kids way into college. And my full pay is part of what enables others’ kids to go to college. </p>

<p>I apologize for the “you’re welcome” comment, but I do not apologize for my kids’ acceptances and I resent the idea that somehow we have done something wrong to get them into college.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Pugmadkate: Out situation is similar to yours. We have been full pay private school k-12 payers for years. While we applied for FA for college, we may or may not receive any, but may receive some merit money. More than likely, we will wind up being full-pay parents. I agree with Rockvillemom, applying for FA is the pits!</p>

<p>It absolutely is an advantage to be a full pay parent, and I find it surprising that people are so defensive about recognizing this advantage. Your kids and my kids do have an admissions advantage over families with less money. But, as we know, there are many types of admission advantages…</p>

<p>I’m providing virtual cookies and milk (both 2% and soy) for the group in case we all run out of cake…</p>

<p>“It absolutely is an advantage to be a full pay parent, and I find it surprising that people are so defensive about recognizing this advantage.”</p>

<p>I am not sure it is defensiveness so much as it is feeling like somebody is accusing you of cheating or otherwise doing something wrong. </p>

<p>Also, is there a difference between being full pay being an advantage, and NOT being full pay being a DIS advantage? Doesn’t full pay apply to the majority of students? If something applies to the majority, is it still an advantage? </p>

<p>Believe it or not, this was all news to me, as was affirmative action, and this is reminiscent of the affirmative action threads. </p>

<p>Relatedly, is it “absolutely” an advantage to be a full pay parent EVERYWHERE, or only in the rarefied world of those competitive at a handful of schools? </p>

<p>Trust me when I say we could not weasel our way into UCLA!</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>As far as my comments are concerned, and as I’ve been interpreting other comments, we are only talking about NOT need blind private colleges. So, no, the advantage would generally not apply to UCLA (although this may change as there may soon be an advantage to being a full pay OOS at the UCs).</p>

<p>By the way, Bclintonk, your analysis was brilliant!</p>

<p>A few last questions then. So NOT need blind private colleges would be the majority of private colleges right? So then there is an “admission bump” for self pay at say thousands of private colleges, even if most give no merit or need based aid, the majority of students are full pay? </p>

<p>OR</p>

<p>Do MOST private schools give significant need based aid?</p>

<p>OR</p>

<p>Is it like…say fifty schools
<a href=“MoneyWatch: Financial news, world finance and market news, your money, product recalls updated daily - CBS News”>MoneyWatch: Financial news, world finance and market news, your money, product recalls updated daily - CBS News;
that have that sweet spot, where half the kids get significant need based aid, and half want it bad enough to be full pay, and the school wants them bad enough to forgive their lesser stats?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Not picking on Brandeis, just using them since they were the example cited – they’re not a charity, though. They are not obligated to right all the inequities of income distribution in this country. No private university is. Frankly, if HYPSM et al decided to offer absolutely no aid beginning tomorrow and just require that applicants be full-pay or go home … well, that would be their prerogative, and the marketplace would bear out whether that was a wise move or not. (Personally? I don’t think HYPSM would lose one iota of “prestige” if they did so.)</p>

<p>Actually, and someone correct me if I’m wrong, I believe that HYP etc have to give out part of their endowment in order to continue to have “non profit” status, and where would they give it except to FA? I believe that they suddenly became more generous a few years ago because there was pressure in Congress to look into whether they were really non profit organizations. I’m sure someone here knows the details.</p>

<p>Lafalum - apology accepted - it’s a sensitive area. And I agree with you that you have done nothing wrong and should be proud of your kids’ acceptances - which they earned.</p>

<p>How about this - what if colleges simply charged less! More students would be full pay - and fewer would apply for FA. (I’m thinking of Elon in particular). The disparity between those contributing to the FA pot and those withdrawing from the pot narrows and the perceived unfair advantage to being full pay also diminishes as more students are just that.</p>

<p>Where is the flaw to this model? Why aren’t more schools doing this?</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>If they think they’re doing a kid a favor by denying him admission, they’re only kidding themselves. First of all, they can’t possibly know that the kid’s only option would be to borrow heavily. A parent getting a second part-time job may be an option; or a helping hand from a family member other than the parents. These things happen a lot with kids who get “gapped.” Second, they have absolutely no control over where that kid ends up, or how much he does borrow to pursue to pursue his dream of a college education. All they control is that it won’t be at Brandeis.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Well, maybe not a win for the college. Spending per student is a big part of the US News rankings. At the margins this creates an incentive to spend more, not less. How big a factor this is in driving up the cost of higher education, I don’t know, but I do know it’s something college and university administrators think about, because I’ve heard some of them talk about it.</p>

<p>Based on my experience the diversity hooks (minority and first generation college) which aren’t due to the student’s performance far outweigh any full pay advantage for admissions into the elite colleges. The elite colleges give almost no merit aid which is fine.</p>

<p>Take a look at the increase in minority acceptance rates at the elite colleges.</p>

<p>I really believe the full pay advantage at elite colleges is very little. It may be used for the last group of students accepted that are in the same academic rating. My child wishes he had a hook other than full pay.</p>

<p>From our HS the last two years the students that were accepted to Ivies were all minorities. Several non-minorities with only the full pay advantage were rated in the Top 3 of their class and had 2300 SATs and didn’t get accepted. The students that did get accepted were rated 15-20 in their class.</p>

<p>It seems there is a reference in some of the post that any full pay family is rich. We started saving for college for kids before my first child was born. We made life choices (as we all do) as what we could afford for cost of living and what we needed to save. One post mentions paying for private K-12 but finding the FA application process troubling. You made the choice to send your child to private school. We couldn’t afford that and pay for college (we saved for college instead).</p>