<p>NSM, I did not mean to make light of the accomplishments of the students I know, I'm honestly not sure if they do or do not have any of those awards (I know there were no national awards, although state level is possible, and for the math kid, a good score in one of the competitions is certainly possible, although I know she hasn't gone to any national ceremonies, etc). One does live in one of the better represented Southern states you listed (ie not Miss, AL, Ark), I don't want to say which one.
I guess that is part of what I'm beginning to see, if a child has the academic "credentials", it is hard to predict what will or will not help them get into a very selective school, although you can see what where an individual has strong points to his application, and where there are challenges.</p>
<p>Cangel, I think you may be right that WE can not always identify a hook, but the colleges know what they want. </p>
<p>I think I have a BWRK. From an over-represented state. No discernible athletic, urm, legacy, or other hooks, but with assorted talents (none rare). Unpackaged. </p>
<p>I often read of the amazing kids on these boards and wonder how the heck mine got in. We were so naive, not realizing how very competitive things are. My kid took the PSAT, did well, thought: "great, I should do fine on the SAT," took that with no prep, refused to take the ACT because thought there was enough testing and colleges didn't require both, noticed some schools required SAT IIs so went and took three of those one morning. </p>
<p>Was picky about colleges: wanted excellent academics most of all (so there were hundreds of schools to choose from though it seemed like millions at the time), but had extracurricular "needs" and refused to sacrifice those. I felt like I was observing a variation of the fairytale Goldilocks and the Three Bears--too hot, too cold; too big, too small. I worried that no schools would be found, but in retrospect I think I was blessed with a kid who had a good grasp of fit. </p>
<p>Applied to only four schools. Very much liked all of them, but had a clear favorite. Is currently, as a freshman, very involved in the same things that were consuming in high school. Has three courses with under a dozen students, is happy as a lark with classes, professors, friends, extracurriculars--the whole bit. (I think this may perfectly suit Sac's definition of "fit" --post 22 in the Scathing Article thread.)</p>
<p>I honestly don't know how this kid got in. Academically very consistent, but I think that is not uncommon, so my guess is, both academic and extracurricular passions. As Blossom says, maybe it is about following your heart. Maybe adcomms have a way to tell who is doing things to look good, and who is doing what he wants to do--and will continue to do so. Also, this doesn't seem to get mentioned too much, but do you think being kind helps? Being passionate, and a good person? Is that a factor?</p>
<p>As Blossum put it so well...my kids, too, followed their hearts. I like Cricket's take on that...MAYBE just MAYBE colleges had a way of telling that they did what they wanted to do and not what looked good, plus plan to continue with those passions in college. Who knows? </p>
<p>The concept of doing X or Y to look good for college is not one that really entered my consciousness until I started reading CC (or as they say, I gotta get out there!) and we don't come from an area that is that competitive, nor where many are trying for elite schools or think this way. </p>
<p>PS...Cangel and Greensleaves.....uh, I enjoy watching your banter back and forth online when one of you is likely downstairs and one up? Feel better Greensleaves....and well, the Green in your name is very fitting with the BIG GREEN.
Susan</p>
<p>I think geographic diversity can help, in the case of a student who would likely be admitted to begin with. I don't think it would work as a "hook." </p>
<p>In our case, my son did not want to attend near home "not in Texas, not touching Texas." I think that in appying to east coast schools he did get a boost, also for being male and verbally talented as opposed to mathmatically. I don't think it was just one "intangible" that contributed. (He applied to small LACs, not HYPS)</p>
<p>And it also helped that he was the only student applying from our high school to his choices, furthermore the only child for about a 100 mile radius. His application didn't go head to head with a classmate with similar stats for instance.</p>
<p>I don't think it would have helped him if he weren't already in the ballpark, but it certainly didn't hurt to be geographically unique when being compared to similar students.</p>
<p>Cricket's message struck home for me. I feel much the way she did when I look at my S's college admissions. Again, basically a BRWK, from an over-represented state. No hooks. And very unpackaged (low-ranked HS, no tutoring, no summer programs, etc.) He was very involved in music, but no awards to show for that, no select bands, no all-state, etc (I think jnmmom described her son similarly with music.)</p>
<p>But a sincerely nice, kind, likable kid, which all his recommendations stressed, and I think this came through in his essay, too. His interviewer was extremely taken with him and kept in constant touch with us throughout the process. I think he came off as genuine, (because everything he presented was true and un-retouched) and I think they recogized this.</p>
<p>At least, that's my theory. I mean, he was academically qualified, but not in any extraordinary way, and not more than many others who were turned down. So I just can't figure it otherwise.</p>
<p>Heh, I read the first post and thought BWRK meant basic white rich kid.</p>
<p>MomOFour....that is pretty funny. That would make an interesting thread too.</p>
<p>Thank you Texastaximom from one New York mom. Most NY parents believe geography does play a part in acceptance. As you stated, your son may have been the only kid in a 100 mile radius applying to his school. Let's see Long Island is about 100 miles long. I wonder how many of our kids applied to Cornell-Duke-Brown- Amherst. I would venture a guess that all these schools got thousands of applications from LI alone and if you add NYC-Westchester and New Jersey you're talking a lot of essays to read. More and more New York kids are applying to schools like Tulane-Rochester-Case Western and Grinnell. We accept the fact that our kids have to travel further from THEIR HOME to get a good education. I do get angered when I read from others who live in underrepresented states, that our kids (NY) seem programmed and only get involved in activities to impress the adcom. New York kids follow their hearts too. But there are just a lot more hearts in the Metro NY region than in Idaho-Vermont and Missisippi. Just needed to vent. Thanks</p>
<p>My experience has been that most kids do not have hooks. And to try to carve one out is really not going to be very easy if they have minds of their own. But I will tell you that in the areas where there are many, many kids applying to the top schools, you will see fewer "BWRKs". In the midwest, I routinely saw super good students getting into HPY. Yes, a few had hooks, but most of them were top, top students with a demonstrated passion for some area. Where I live now just doesn't have many kids applying to the top schools for me to come to any conclusions, but I can tell you that I did not see many BWRKs getting into HPY from Westchester county, and kids who are in NYC have a tough go of it as well. SOme of those kids would have been shoo ins in Pittsburgh or Cleveland. So the geographics can make a big difference. But there were pockets in Westchester where a lot of kids do get into top colleges--the Bronxville, Chappaqua, Scarsdale, Edgemont school districts. Greenwich in Ct comes to mind as well. However, I see no benefit for a family to stick a kid into Mt Vernon and Yonkers, both more citified districts, as an advantage over these top drawer schools. I don't know if they just look at the region over all, or just compare the kids. </p>
<p>Although you can try to be a "Pygmalion" (wonder if there isn't the subconscious working in that guy changing his name to Shaw) and try to create an ueber kid for the ivies, I don't think most kids are so malleable and cooperative. And you do really have to be good at what you do to a ridiculous level for it to be a "Hook" If the kids doesn't love it, I just can't fathom making them go through the motions, and I don;t see how they'd be so good at these things. I have been to too many concerts where there are kids who are at very advanced levels playing difficult pieces with no love for the music, just going through the motions. Yes, they are technically good, but there is no life, no passion there, and that really is the mother lode. But most kids or people do not ever reach that point. </p>
<p>There should be a number of changes in the college app process on the level of the most selective schools. Perhaps a two week stint doing community service in a very impoverished area with the adcoms would show who has character. Or a wilderness trip. Can't fake it for that long. I think the SAT adding the writing is a good step as colleges can actually see a sample of writing that is guaranteed to be the kid's instead of the edited and many times rewriiten essays with the app. In many private schools, they want the kid to spend the day at the school, shadowing a student. That is part of the assessment as they want to see how the kid would fit it. Perhaps the applications need to be completed SAT style at the colleges or in a center with the essay questions not revealed till the kid gets to that point. That is another private school technique. Perhaps the interviews should count more and be more specific.</p>
<p>Marny, I agree with you that it is harder for a NY metro area kid to stand out because there are SO many of them. Many get admitted and they are represented highly at selective schools but like you say, they are "competing" against one another and we don't have that here as much in a rural area. </p>
<p>Just so you know, the "following your heart" type kid can be found anywhere. I certainly don't mean to suggest that kids in competitive areas of the country do not follow their heart. What I do think, is that the phenomena of all this packaging and gaming and high end counselors is more prevalent in certain parts of the country, and very much not the scene in my neck of the (literal) woods. But that does not imply all kids from such affluent metro areas are part of that "scene". You are also right that kids from your area might be wise to benefit from applying to schools that are not as much the "norm" for applicants from Long Island. </p>
<p>Susan</p>
<p>Susan, my son is happy where he is but during winter break he was saying that if he knew about Reed then, he would have applied there. Now Portland, Oregon is far and he would have been a kid from an underrepresented state there!</p>
<p>Achat...well, be happy cause he is not too far away and not only is he happy, but it is easier for you to see him. But I do get your point! </p>
<p>You are right that your son's profile would be better geographically with Reed than with Swat. However, as you can see, kids from NY DO get into Swat.
;-)</p>
<p>There is such a smorgesboard of colleges out there and I firmly believe kids could be happy at way more than one certain one that appears as a favorite.</p>
<p>Texastaximom, what is it with our kids?
[quote]
not in Texas, not touching Texas.
[/quote]
D is looking Midwest and East ,also primarily at smaller LAC's and is "reversed" like your kid. Math over Verbal. And as far as the only applicant from our school-well, let's just say that's a virtual given. </p>
<p>I am in hopes that D, a mildly recruited athlete (so far, hope springs eternal) with no other apparent hooks can be the "hillbilly gal" or "Ellie-Mae Clampett before the black gold" that some school is looking for. Other than that, she is the quintessential BWRK. I shudder with the recognition that all of her rec's will come with glowing references to her "work ethic", "persistence", and "dogged pursuit" of goals. She'd be in good shape if we were talking about filling out the harness for the Iditarod while college admissions counselors will look and say-what a bright,well rounded kid as they drop her app into the round file. It is a frequently recurring nightmare.</p>
<p>What is left to do? D will not change EC's to conform to some ideal (she'd sew me in the sheets and beat me with a mop handle for suggesting it), and it is probably too late anyway. I have a plan to give reprints of an article I read on rec's that mentions BWRK give-aways to adcom's in hopes that her rec's will avoid the cliches that send her to the dustbin. (I'm just waiting for a thunderbolt to tell me how to do THAT without being offensive.)</p>
<p>As far as packaging, I've suggested filling out ethnicity with "hill-billy" and sending a hand-tame live goat along with the app as an "example of her passions". Whattya think? </p>
<p>As far as any further packaging- maybe the rec thing above and my belief that she fill out data forms indicating her academic interest in the hard sciences, specifically chemistry (true as far as it goes, but she is fervently pre-med). Her essays will be concentrated on vignettes of ranch life-riding the fence, wildflower cataloguing, whatever-everyday something unique happens from which she could extrapolate an essay. (This weekend will be our annual rattlesnake safety day, bring your own shotgun for target shooting. They'll be leaving their dens in less than a month.) </p>
<p>But it appears there is incredible momentum away from kids like mine towards the edgier and more brilliant, nationally talented , internationally published students. I worry not as much whether they will want her ( as that I can't control and anyway -it's their loss) but more about a failure to self-describe because of her raisin'. She doesn't brag, and certainly doesn't project herself into situations as superior. She far prefers to let the boys glom around each other prior to the UIL math competitions ranking themselves by previous accomplishments or the size of their ....calculators, while she ,wearing athletic sweats, quietly waits for the contest. Then she leaves to work-out before the awards ceremony. When the trophy comes home in a couple of days-she just laughs (as does her female sponsor). It's just how she's wired. She wants her prize but she has no need for public adulation or is uncomfortable with it, I don't know which.</p>
<p>Packaging my kid like a $25k counselor would? I don't think I'll get the chance ("The rain in Spain falls mainly on the ....."). But maybe I can adopt? JK.</p>
<p>Edit: Dang it jamimom, you beat me to the Pyg reference. I type so sloooowly. Well, good job. I was going there, too.</p>
<p>BWRK = Basic White Rich Kid, ah, probably could mean that as well, although you need to add a "B", BWRKB = Basic White Rich Kid from the 'Burbs.
Soozie, ostensibly I'm at work, and she is at home, although things are pretty slow around here on the day after Mardi Gras.</p>
<p>Cricket, I think character is a very important thing that is not emphasized enough. Reading some of the chances threads, and some of the other things kids post - I know some of those students project images on their applications, or let things slip that cause their file to be round filed. Conversely, I think people of character shine through the application, and especially the recommendations to make a positive impact. I also agree that while adcoms may be fooled sometimes, by and large they really can read between the lines.
I worry about when they get down to the bottom of the pile in early March - someone who posts here a lot, Jamimom or NSM, likes to talk about the importance of getting that app in early, and perhaps thereby being at the top of the stack even in the RD round, I'm sure there's some truth to that, although I don't think you can be sure they get to your file first.</p>
<p>The secret is - There is no secret!</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>There should be a number of changes in the college app process on the level of the most selective schools. Perhaps a two week stint doing community service in a very impoverished area with the adcoms would show who has character.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I'm sorry Jamimom, I know what you meant, but I did a roflmao - whose character will that demonstrate, the kids' or the adcoms'? I had the vision of 25 kids and 5 miserable adults in a raft floating down the Colorado or trying unsuccessfully to fix a roof! "Well, son, now do you want to go to Harvard, did you impress them?" "No Dad, heckNO!"
Sorry, it just hit the funnybone ;).</p>
<p>"Conversely, I think people of character shine through the application, and especially the recommendations to make a positive impact. I also agree that while adcoms may be fooled sometimes, by and large they really can read between the lines."</p>
<p>There are schools that are looking for character, and rank that above academics in reviewing applications. Earlham, for one. Once upon a time that would have been true at Swarthmore as well, but, alas....</p>
<p>Haven't read all the posts, so maybe someone has mentioned it, but certain cynical adcoms say BWRK refers to BORING well-rounded kids.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon you make me smile, even though the situation is so sad at times, the need to package and such. I am sure the adcoms got a big surprise because my son is definitely not Jethro Bodine--no FFA, no rodeo, and no stock car racing. If they were looking for "Big Tex" they must have scratched their heads at his "Why I am a punk rock enthusiast" Personal statement bringing in his penchant for politics and satire. He's more Seattle grunge than Bocephus or Junior.</p>
<p>As for geographic selection I can only think of that quote "familiarity breeds contempt." I'm sure he find things to dislike on the east coast, but at least they will take some time to grate on him. So far, he is absolutely loving the change in venue.</p>
<p>Curmudgeon, I would really like to see a parent successfully get the kid up to the national levels needed for highly selective school admissions as makeover advises. The amount of work, time, and chance that goes into getting ANY kid, even one with extreme talent and desire and motivation to get to the top levels of ANYTHING is no sure thing. I have a national level athlete who suffered all kinds of failures, ups and downs and in the end was about lower D-1, and D-3 leel when he was done, and this was when he was one of the top in the country when he was 14. And he loved doing the sport. Can't see sticking a kid who doesn't into that routine. The same with any activity. You don't just get the leads in a play, learn the Mendelsohn concerto, get into Allstates, win the Math Olympiad, get into the Olympics. The levels you have to go to get a hook are not easy. That's why most kids do not have hooks. And most of the kids who get do not have hooks. Just being a oboe player is not going to get you into the top schools; you have to be one heck of an oboe player, the college has to need the oboe player, and you have to show that you will play the oboe for them, often audition for the orchestra/ performnace major. A premed who plays the oboe is not going to get a blink as so few end up committing to the orchestra after being admitted. </p>
<p>My advice is for her to get her app is very, very early, with all materials complete. The adcoms are more generous early in the process. Most kids rush to get the stuff in the mail at the last minute. And that she is not on the Eastcoast (no rattle snakes here, ) and her interests and essays will be different, she will stand out somewhat from the crowd. What else can you do? The premed can be tough, as there is along line for that major and the standards are often higher for those kids. But, yes, most kids are BWRKs, so a number of them do get into the top schools.</p>
<p>Marny, oh yes, it is difficult when there are so many wonderful applicants from one area. Of course someone who is from a remote place or off the beaten path must have somewhat of an advantage. Geographical diversity is interesting, after all.</p>
<p>Jamimom mentioned that with the new SAT, adcomms will be guaranteed that they are seeing the student's own writing. I really am surprised by all the editing (by people other than the student) that seems to go on. It just seems like thoughtful essays by the student are the way to go--over processed runs the risk of becoming bland, or without a "voice." My BWRK is anything but boring (Nedad!) or at least it seems to me, but of course I am biased.
I think essays are really important to schools that aren't numbers driven, more important than a lot of kids realize. Curmudgeon, your daughter sounds wonderful. If she can write well, spend time on the essays, and let her personality and interests shine through, I'd bet they can really help with her admissions. My kid is understated too, and it seems not to have hurt.</p>