<p>Ha! Got your attention, didn't I?
I started to post this on the Secret World... thread, but it references something from very early in the thread, so I decided to start a new topic.</p>
<p>My small personal experience of Ivy candidates that I know very well (4-5), none were recruitable athletes (although a couple played some in high school), none were URMs, one was Val, the others weren't - you see where I'm going with this. All these young ladies are to some extent BWRKs, with no visible hooks that I can see. They are all from "underrepresented areas", the South. The most recent, who got into Yale EA this Dec, is a math whiz, but her "hook" is primarily academic, so she belies someone's statement, Xiggi or NSM - she's a white Bwrk from the 'burbs whose hook was academics (I've known her since diapers, she's got no other hooks).</p>
<p>Is geography that powerful a hook on its own? The Yale admit I discussed above is not from as "underrepresented" a state as mine, but still Southern.
Is it the reverse true (this is what I suspect) - being from New York/New Jersey/Massachusetts is a tremendous handicap, especially from a competitive school, because you are directly competing with with a highly identifiable pool.</p>
<p>Could it be that BWRKs are not as doomed as we like to paint them here.
Or is it that what constitutes a hook is almost impossible to see for anyone other than the heavily recruited athlete or the world class ______?</p>
<p>Anyway, we're hoping that Princeton sees our town name, wonders "is that even IN New Jersey?", looks at a map and figures that anyone who considers Princeton to be in North Jersey needs to be admitted. ;)</p>
<p>Sorry, about the lingo, BWRK - bright, well rounded kid.</p>
<p>Oh and Ctnj, I considered Connecticut and California as well - decided CA was still a little exotic, like TX, and since there was so much talk about Yale, CT has a tiny advantage over the other 3 (probably all faculty kids ;)).</p>
<p>Bright Well Rounded Kid. Term was used in "Admissions Confidential," a book about Duke Admission Office.</p>
<p>Excellent colleges always seek a balanced class with a little of this and a little of that. Basically, anything in oversupply is going to be statistically less attractive to the college, and anything scarce is going to be more attractive. In a bouquet, BWRKs = carnations, daisys, & greenery. Very plentiful. Hooks = roses, orchids, lilys; less plentiful, more colorful. Both are necessary to a balanced class.</p>
<p>Hooks = a relatively more scarce skill, quality, demographic, or geographical region. Yes, I agree that a BWRK from an underrepresented state, or a BWRK legacy, may be statistically more likely to be admitted.</p>
<p>The college cannot be all made up of distinctive superstars because this is not an enviornment anyone would enjoy... (You need the people who star in the play and the people who do the costumes and sets too, or there is no play.)</p>
<p>Cangel, about the main point you brought up with regard to bright, well rounded kids...I pretty much gave my opinion on that other thread...and that is, while a hook can help, I also think BRWKs are offered admission to selective schools. I would not discourage a kid from being well rounded. I would not encourage a kid to find some unique hook. I think both types of kids have a chance of admission. I realize the trend today is toward one singular passion, preferably a unique one, but I do not believe that is required to get admitted. As mentioned previously, my oldest is what I would call a bright well rounded kid. She did excel in several areas but was not a specialist or not on a national level in any one area, nor were her activities or interests unique in nature. The same is true for some kids I interview for my college. Frankly, I am often impressed by the kids who are so active in many areas, while also exceling academically. I just interviewed a couple kids like that and those particular kids struck me as the best ones I interviewed. So, I think either path....being a specialist OR being well rounded, can be admitted to colllege...I think the key is getting engaged in interests in a significant capacity over a long time period and exceling to some degree. </p>
<p>In any case, I don't advocate for trying to fit a mold of what ya think colleges want. I think do what interests you for all the right reasons and then showcase who you are when it comes time to apply to college. </p>
<p>As far as geography, it is just another tip or consideration when looking at both the child holisticly....AND...looking at the needs of building a diverse class. Being from some less represented state is not gonna get a kid admitted but if everything else is equal between two candidates and then when looking at who they have in the class, a geographic location can be a tip, like so many other factors. When we are talking highly selective colleges, and when way more qualified applicants apply then can be admitted, they have to go beyond the "stats" cause so many kids HAVE the stats in the pile, so all this other stuff becomes a consideration....ECs, essay, recs, geographic location, etc. And EVEN THEN, some of it comes down to the building of a diverse freshman class, and how many kids they have of a particular profile and wanting a variety. That is often why one extraordinary kid gets into one elite school but not another. He/she was "good enough" for the second school, but may not have fit a need/slot in the class as far as profile (and yes, geography is one aspect of a profile).
Susan</p>
<p>I think BWRK entered our language, perhaps as above, in " Admisssions Confidential," as a mild pejorative: "bright" as opposed to "brilliant," "well-rounded" as opposed to highly accomplished in certain areas. I understand "hook" to refer to non-academic qualities, legacy, urm, recruited athlete, celebrity offspring, development case. The meaning of BWRK has maybe broadened, since the words are so vague and attractive. Maybe a math whiz who gets into Yale EA, while undoubtedly bright and well rounded, isn't really a BWRK, who might have a 1420 SAT, run cross country, and be president of the French club.</p>
<p>Cangel, I don't mean to appear ungrateful or whining, but yes, people from the Northeast, especially Massachussetts, CT, New Jersey, NY DO have a disadvantage in a very competitive pool. My personal experience from my son's high school and neighboring towns says so.</p>
<p>But so what? There are many other colleges to choose from.</p>
<p>It's great to have or be a bright, well-rounded kid; coming from an overrepresented school in an overrepresented part of an overrepresented state, I definitely believe that geography is sometimes the determining factor in admission for un-hooked bright well-rounded kids. </p>
<p>Oh well, at least those of us in the Northeast can send our non-Williams/Amherst kids to W&L or Davidson, where we provide the desired geographical diversity:)</p>
<p>Great replies, the conclusion that I am coming to believe is that the "hook" for many kids is very difficult to identify - we just don't know/can't predict if something in their application will tip the scale, and it is very hard to say what that one thing is. I think Achat is right about the NE, at least in terms of the chances for BWRKs (whatever you accept a BWRK to be).</p>
<p>If I didn't love my daughter dearly, and respect her choice - I would have really wished that she had applied to all her original choices (including Yale, which she decided she didn't want to attend - Curmudge's daughter is not so far off) just as an experiment to see what does it really take.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The meaning of BWRK has maybe broadened, since the words are so vague and attractive. Maybe a math whiz who gets into Yale EA, while undoubtedly bright and well rounded, isn't really a BWRK, who might have a 1420 SAT, run cross country, and be president of the French club.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm reading this into what you are saying, Idler, but based again on my tiny sample (plus my daughter who did not try for HYPS, more of an AWS type), I think academics are a trump - in the sense that the BRWKs I'm talking about are all strong students (A's with rare or no B's, no "fluff" classes, higher SATs than 1420). Maybe adcoms aren't "lying" to us, maybe we just don't want to hear what they are saying?</p>
<p>You have to look at both the numerator and the denominator, folks. Schools like Cornell, despite allegedly discriminating against NY/NJ residents have HUGE numbers of kids from those states. Ditto the rest of the N/East top tier colleges. So-- kids from Great Neck and Scarsdale and Belmont and Wellesley High Schools get admitted to these N/east colleges in droves...</p>
<p>The issue is that if your kid is the 40th application of a tennis-playing valedictorian who volunteers at a nursing home from a N/east suburb that a particular Adcom has read that day, the chances that the heart-warming essay about "what I learned from being kicked off the soccer team" is going to get a second look is pretty remote. Most of what we read on the kids boards makes most of these kids sound pretty dreary.... poorly written essays, meaningless leadership roles in dumb EC's, trite reasons for wanting a liberal arts education. Can you blame the schools for not wanting to pack their lecture halls with the "Assistant Treasurer of the Spanish Honor Society who won the American Legion book award" kids, especially if they all hail from lily-white high priced suburbs????</p>
<p>I think packaging is a stupid idea and Adcoms will see through it if they see enough of it. However, every year hundreds of these allegedly non-hooked kids get admitted to top schools.... so these kids must be doing something right. Maybe following your heart and to hell with the experts, Hernandez et al included, is the way to go.....</p>
<p>I have met recent Ivy accepted students from the South and they are far from being just BWRK. They have things going for them like 1600SATs plus being a national champ in some academic "sport," or being president of several school and a national organization plus being very well rounded or they hold a national championship in a relatively rare academic sport, plus state honors in another academic sport plus a couple of major school leadership positions.</p>
<p>It may be that for the less represented southern states like Miss. and Arkansas, the BWRKs can get in, but I doubt that's the case for places such as Texas, North Carolina, Georgia and Florida.</p>
<p>being from NY may be a disadvantage because there are over 1 million students K-12 in the Public school system alone. Factor in the private/parochial school kids, the LI& Westchester County kids and the rest of the state, you have a huge applicant pool.</p>
<p>In Dartmouth's class of 2008 -(1077 students) </p>
<p>NYS has the largest amount of students(164 or 15.2% of the freshman class) with 75 students (6.96 % of the freshman class) from NYC alone.</p>
<p>CA has 94 (8.7%) students from the state.</p>
<p>States that are least represented are:
Wyoming-2
West Virginia-1
Utah-3
SD-2
SC-4
RI-1Oklahoma-1
ND-1
New Mexico-5
Missouri-4
Mississippi-1
Kansas-4
Idaho-1
Hawaii-3Delaware-1
Arkansas-3
Alabama-2</p>
<p>While there are a lot of kids from Jersey, it does seem like there is mostly only one from each county.</p>
<p>Edison-3
Jersey City-2
Moorestown-4 (all boys)
North Caldwell 2(boys)
Short Hills-3 (all girls)
Princeton-3
Princeton Junction -2
Tenafly-3</p>
<p>But on the other hand,</p>
<p>The 3 NYS schools at Cornell University -</p>
<p>NYS College of Agriculture & Life Sciences
NYS College of Human Ecology
NYS School of Industrial & Labor Relations</p>
<p>are going to have a huge number of NYS students applying because if admitted they attend at the NYS in-state price of tuition, about $16,000 per year/ approx $28,500 out of state. You still attend an "Ivy League School" but you are not apying the 40k/year sticker price.</p>
<p>I don't know the number of applicants from each region, as I used my "cheat sheet" -The Dartmouth Greenbook that we got in sept.</p>
<p>I do believe that everything is relative there may be people in the midwest who have no interest in attending school in the northeast. I beleive the majority of the kids in college do attend school either in their home state, or not too far from it. On the CC this perspective can be kind of skewed, because we don't hear too much about applying to your local state U. or publics (Maybe with the exception of the UC's)</p>
<p>Aaahh, <em>clears throat, as well</em> don't mind my child, she is out of her head with the flu (No fun being on your Mardi Gras vacation, and sick as the proverbial canine). "Go back to bed dear, you are not making sense".</p>