By the word "liberty" they meant liberty for property, not liberty for persons

Graduate School Law School
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<p>*Important note: This is a view done by me, an impoverished student, and a first gen student as well”</p>

<p>I am having a bit of a conundrum regarding what exactly is needed from students in today’s age. This is the most linear question I can ask just because of my observations. There is a lot of talk what you should do and where you should go and how you should do things. A lot of people find it to be “intellectually” prestigious, or of showing great intellect when going into finance or accounting or business. Seems to me pretty generic, and when I think about IB, how do students from HYPS+Wharton stand out, they all have the same degrees in the finance spectrum? Yet people constantly tell me they want to go into finance, because they will make a lot of money (money is a good thing, don’t get me wrong). So standing out is important, but again, how do you stand out and at what costs if any?</p>

<p>So one of my questions is how do we judge state of the American education system? I see a lot of different answers here rather than one straight one. An education is a golden to ticket to whatever you want to do. That’s my belief though, some people will disagree, and that’s fine. I think that obtaining an Ivy League education whether it’s on an undergrad or grad level will be an incredible premium that you will receive if you’re in my position. I have been reading a lot of posts on different university forums, different subject forums etc.…One thing I notice is that many people post things like “don’t worry, you should not go into debt if you have to go to out of state, stay in state and go to a local University, or for that matter a state university” or “Its ok, you can do a few years here and there” What kind of advice is that? Are you their financial manager? Do you have a degree in finance or business, why are people concerned with other peoples decisions as if the people giving the advice actually achieved something other than being accepted to a top university (that doesn’t mean you’re intellectually smart btw)</p>

<p>It seems that when you operate a business and look into the foreseeable future it’s important to be involved with long term profits rather than short term. If that’s a “golden rule” then should it be the same for education, why go half assed to some state uni, when you get obtain a degree from some of the top LAS, and top Ivy’s, even if debt arises you have a degree that will in LONG term be of incredible worth (right?) is my logic flawed?</p>

<p>Second, word on the street is that public/private universities are producing graduates as commodities for the job market. People each year graduate with every degree known to man, from different universities and from different parts of the world. So many people also hold so many of the same degrees and credentials. Then the question lies into why did this person get the job over this person? Same creds, one didn’t get the job! Well if the above reasoning is true, than there must be a deeper reasoning in why the same two people graduating from Yale Law and one gets a job and one doesn’t. Or both don’t get the job (but they have a Yale degree?) Maybe then the employment officer’s look at character along with the degree you have? Maybe that’s why so many people get ****ed off when they go to top schools (or even worse, non-top schools, and your parents are not wealthy), graduate, and can’t get a job because they are shallow and followers.</p>

<p>It is very clear that the “world” and “internet” is against going to law school, as of today I have read enough threads and questions and cries of people saying don’t go, or want to get out. I have my undergrad set, but it’s what I want to do after it. I looked at everything from the education perspective, PhD, Law, and an MBA. And I keep glancing at the law degree. It seems so much more appealing than going to MBA. I mean come on, you can’t teach business, and if you are going to MBA at HYP than you have held some serious weight at whatever job you have been at and you are just extending you further “knowledge” but let’s be honest. You care level isn’t as high about what you will learn at HYP, most people, and respectively, care about the degree itself stating that you graduated from Harvard or Yale, Wharton. Instant job qualification, you can do whatever you want, literally, and you can’t argue that.</p>

<p>While an MBA is strong, I think people confuse it with a golden key, I believe if you never worked in business or anything of that matter, getting an MBA is joke, and it’s even a bigger joke if people say your learning from the intellectual realm (sorry). </p>

<p>JD/LAW: like I mentioned above, I am extremely drawn into the study of Law. After UG, I was thinking of going into law, primarily for what you get out of it education wise. It’s a powerful thing to have a law degree not because you and everyone else that year across the world is graduating to become a lawyer, but because of the education you got out of your school. You have obtained a higher level of your knowledge. Knowledge that to me is of great power, I think law will give me the skills I will need to think for analytical jobs which do encounter quite a bit of abstract logic. You would gain more from the logical train of thought from the way you approach problems in the any realm that has lots of abstract thinking more so than a MBA (just my thoughts) anyone can be taught by Goldman Sachs to be an analyst. But the question is, can those people LEARN.</p>

<p>Some may ask why law? You want to be a lawyer? Whelp, I have a feeling some people are about to get either very upset, some people are going to turn into elitist and accuse of my being illogical after the many times I relate to intellect on this forum, and plenty of trolls will begin to lurk, but I don’t even plan on becoming a lawyer…I don’t aspire to protect anybody, I don’t aspire to be robin hood. I just aspire to understand law in its raw format. I also am willing to say, I would be fine unless otherwise convinced, and you will have to convince me hard, to take out 150k for an education in law at Yale or Harvard and knowing, I will not become a lawyer is crazy (this is about where in the post, people are mind blow, and begin to frantically type to save my life)</p>

<p>Now, I will acknowledge that this rant went all over the place, and maybe I missed some key points, so I will open it up to the public, to comment, or ask questions and converse on whether or not Law, is a great thing to study, regardless of what you’re going to do with it. </p>

<p>P.S: Advice is always appreciated, whether it’s rude or civil </p>

<p>(Please no 10char answers)</p>

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<p>What is your financial situation? Do you have a lot of undergrad debt? Are you in a position to pay for law school without too much debt?</p>

<p>(I’ve been in hiring for large law firms for 25 years, so I want to have a better perspective on what you would be looking at after law school.)</p>

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<p>Financial situation, haha. Undergrad debt is 0 atm, I have the state paying my tuition.</p>

<p>On that note, I am a sophomore in college, and am totally on my own as of monetary issues. I actually pay some of my mom bills (water, rent, and food) with whom I live with. I havent gotten into details of how my MBA or JD will be funded. I have no money in regards to family period. No grad money, no nothing, I just work part time for my self and some how manage to diversify the money I get for house hold things, other than that the state of michigan is paying for me atm</p>

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<p>you should study for a law degree only if you want to be a lawyer. It is not useful for much else.</p>

<p>If you want to study for the sake of “knowledge”, why pay hundreds of thousands for the privelege. Why not apply for a PhD program (in say, philosophy) and have college pay YOU to attend?</p>

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<p>I have no interest in obtaining a PhD? MBA mixes learning, but its a linear mix into business, I would assume law isnt as linear, because everything in technical format has been founded on the bases of constitutional law in general (although who studies constitutional law anymore hehe) So its seems like it might be useful elsewhere after all?</p>

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<p>Only in some dreamer’s dreams, and that of the law school marketing machines. But hey, if you have a couple of hundred grand lying around, why not waste it and three years of your life. :D</p>

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<p>so IF I have 150-180k I should use it for law school?</p>

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<p>If you have that money laying around OR a rock-solid guaranteed job after graduation AND you can get into a good law school AND that’s what you really want, THEN you should use it for law school.</p>

<p>What you don’t want to do is pay for law school in debt and end up paying it back by working multiple temp jobs with no benefits, no respect and no security.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the point of view. I actually have a follow up question, or rather a statement</p>

<p>Scenario A)</p>

<p>An elite education, provides you with and “proper” education and elite connections (unless your boring, and have no communication skills) If you have a good personality, I am sure you will meet people, and choose wisely who you will become friends with ect. You will for the most part be taught through proper intelligence, and what is taught will brighten your own intelligence on the subject and maybe life as a whole. Debt will be gigantic, but your degree in the long run will out shine, and you will pay that debt back (maybe not in the first 2 years, but you will PAY IT BACK), Law to me seems its best to study because you understand where law intersects with business and how the law actually works than it does to understand nothing about it.</p>

<p>Scenario B) </p>

<p>Dont go to law school, try to do something with your undergrad degree (which is slowly becoming the “high school diploma”) I would not be around elites (people, educators, connections). I will be debt free, and stuck with my degree and getting the same job as every other sheep will get out of UG at a non ivy, or public ivy. I am from low income family, have no help, no nothing, but at least your debt free and can do what ever you want. try to get a financial job, and then go to MBA, oh wait, MBA is a joke. Unless you go to an M7 but once you get there the MBA doesn’t mean you actually have a skill you can use. It means you have an education that covers a spectrum of “business” at the same time you only have knowledge of business that has nothing really applicable to show for it. On the other hand nothing pays off in the short and long term like an MBA, it’s the safest way to ensure a 6 figure salary and not kill yourself in the process</p>

<p>Which scenario sounds like a good one?</p>

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<p>It “sounds” like you only listen to what you want to hear in your dream world. :roll eyes:</p>

<p>Go to law school. Incur bone-crushing debt. Enjoy life.</p>

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<p>Supfresh: </p>

<p>Have you considered studying English to improve your writing skills? No matter which post-graduate degree you might decide to pursue, you’ll need to improve your writing and communication skills. </p>

<p>I’ve read the law forum periodically since I discovered it when my kids went through college and grad school selection. I left the forum a few times. Eventually I can’t help myself, and come back to see if anything has changed. </p>

<p>I’ve concluded that very few people actually want to hear that law school is a bad decision. Either students (and parents) think that they will manage to be the exception, or they have convoluted rationales for justifying their pursuit of a law degree. The rationales presented by prospective law students include </p>

<p>(a) the economy/job market will improve,
(b) jobs in public interest, the government or middle-America are plentiful,
(c) J.D.s can be used to get non-legal jobs,
(d) they have sufficient “connections” so they will be assured employment despite the job market,
(e) their prospective school has a strong enough reputation or great placement office, so that their risks are minimized,
(f) they will work hard enough be at the top of their class so they will be guaranteed employability (my personal favorite myth, since clearly 90% of law students will be at the bottom 90% of their class),
(g) they will qualify for enough scholarship money so that they don’t have to worry about six-figure debt;
(h) they haven’t majored in anything that would lead to a career, so they have no other choice but to go to grad school;
(i) a law degree is the only path to a six-figure salary that they can envision;
(j) they are ok with starting their own law practice and working for themselves, even if they can’t find a job;
(k) they want to be tax, patent or some other type of lawyer and believe jobs are much more plentiful in those specialities;
(l) they like to argue or were on a debate team, and everyone tells them they should become a lawyer;
(j) they want to make a “difference” and being a lawyer will let them change public policy and laws;
(k) they think there is some kind of status or prestige associated with a J.D.</p>

<p>I’m sure there are other myths out there, but these came to mind quickly. I’ll save OP time by outlining them. </p>

<p>It doesn’t seem to matter how many times the lawyers on CC discuss the holes in each and every one of these myths. ZooserMom, Greybeard and others give really great advice here. They show enormous patience IMO, and offer invaluable advice repeatedly. In a few months, however, a new group of prospective law students (or their parents) will eagerly make the same arguments and it starts all over again. </p>

<p>Let the games begin.</p>

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<p>Whelp, thats just sad that a JD is some what worthless for the amount of time you put into it and the debt that comes out. It also sucks that the market for “lawyers” has gone down…</p>

<p>I also hope I didnt sound rude with other posts, I was not disregarding others opinions, but rather wanted to see how much people would refer not to go to law school. (not the only site and not the only reference that has stated law school is a bad idea)</p>

<p>…back to the drawing boards, 2 more years left of UG</p>