<p>In all of this discourse, no one has addressed the virtue of maturity and balance in the education of a physician. My medical school classmates who did best were those who had already worked as speech pathologists, nurses, pharmacists, etc as well as those who had already completed PhDs. They had excellent interpersonal and critical thinking skills and kept the patients’ needs in mind. (Alas I was one of those child prodigies who skipped a grade and was a bit self-centered until my late 20s).</p>
<p>I think the reason people aren’t mentioning that is because this program does not allow one to actually enter medical school early (in fact it encourages students to take a year or two off between college and medical school), only be admitted early.</p>
<p>jalfred - There are several in Texas that don’t, HPME at Northwestern does not, Caltech UCSD does not and so on.</p>
<p>[U-Z</a> - Direct BS-MD Programs](<a href=“http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/u-z.html]U-Z”>http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/u-z.html)</p>
<p>Many that seem to require them are saying yes but does not matter or requiring 24.</p>
<p>"line-as others have pointed out-the entire medical school experience is driven by standardized tests. "
-Really? There are few Med. Schools that do not have exams at all and I do not believe that others have standardized testing as programs are different, they are even done with pre-clinicals at different times. Hey, my kid is done with pre-clinicals. No more lectures, no more end of block exams (none were standardized). BTW, the big 6 hours exam at the end of each block is essay exam. I am not talking about Anatomy / Hist, which are somewhat easier.</p>
<p>To texas: I guess our definitions of “many” are different. I see it as a handful of schools out of the total number of medical schools in the US.
and Miami-yes, “really”; between licensing exams and board certification(s), no matter where you attend medical school, there are standardized tests in your future. And as the results of these tests will determine if and how you practice medicine, it’s clear the entire medical school experience still rests on the results of these nationwide, standardized tests.</p>
<p>Jalfred - I counted 18 programs no MCAT needed, 9 yes but does not matter. </p>
<p>I follow the BS/MD applicant thread closely and the popular programs - Albany, HPME, PLME, Rice/Baylor, Baylor/Baylor, Case Western, Rochester, Pittsburgh, UKMC etc don’t have a requirement.</p>
<p>I also notice some of the newer programs without an MCAT requirement started in Texas are missing from the list. There are at least three or four new programs.</p>
<p>Texas- add Union College and WUSL to your list as well.</p>
<p>"And as the results of these tests will determine if and how you practice medicine, it’s clear the entire medical school experience still rests on the results of these nationwide, standardized tests. "
-As well as any licensing in any OTHER field. Absolutely ANY. If you want to have a license, you have to pass a standardized test. I do not see the diff., beside that Med. test are much more difficult, nobody argue here. However, if you refer to pre-clinical at Med. School, programs are different and I cannot see how exams could be called standardized. If you want to be a PE (professional engineer), you take standardized test and you have to continue taking certain amount of classes every year or you will loose your PE certification (but keep in mind, it is not anywhere as difficult as in Med. field, and PE is NOT required to be hired as an engineer. Actually, you really do not need a degree, it is up to a company). Any certification require taking standardized tests.</p>
<p>When talking about how much science the average physician known and how important a degree in science as an UG to doing well in medical school we have to keep in mind that their are many types of science. Nearly all the science majors in my medical school class, in residency and practice majored in the Life Sciences. Those of us who majored in the Physical Sciences come to medical school with a very different knowledge base in Science. I was an Astrophysics major who took many upper division courses in Physics, Math(including and beyond Calculus) and Astronomy. In my premed courses I got As in Physics and Biology, Bs in Chemistry and barely scraped by with Cs in Organic Chemistry. I do not think any U.S. medical schools even required a college level course, let alone Calculus, when I applied to medical schools.</p>
<p>During my first two years I had a real inferiority complex when studying subjects like Biochemistry which seemed really alien to me. I was really bad in microbiology lab and was scolded by the female student Biology major who always followed me in Microbiology class when we were looking at slides in a light microscope. I always left it a mess since I had no idea how to use one since there is nothing in Physics that we would look at with a light microscope. When looking at atoms we use electron microscopes and when observing distant astronomical bodies we use various types of telescopes. However, there were times when certain topics like medical imaging and electronics came up that made me feel superior. My classmates knew no Math beyond high school Algebra and were ignorant of such basic things as Ohm’s Law.</p>
<p>In the clinical years, when we went on rounds with the Chairman of OB-Gyn Department of a major teaching hospital he would always ask questions such as “How does a laser work?”, or “What is Schrodinger’s Equation?” and “What is a quasar?”. These are questions that even an Engineering major would not be able to answer but to a Physical Science major they were pretty elementary. And that is how I shined in a rotation in which I knew next to nothing about the actual subject matter. </p>
<p>I did my residency in Nuclear Medicine and was constantly amazed at how little not only the other residents, but also the attendings, knew about basic Nuclear Physics. Physicians and Engineers are not really scientists, they are highly skilled professionals who’s educations included some training in science.</p>
<p>“My classmates knew no Math beyond high school Algebra and were ignorant of such basic things as Ohm’s Law.”</p>
<p>I thought taking physics is a requirement and most students take calculus in college.</p>
<p>a) lemaitre is talking about when he/she was a med student and the current requirements were probably not in place yet
b) I have taken those classes (which you’re right, are required) and while I do certainly remember ohm’s law (although I have better memories of learning about it in high school than I do college), I don’t remember a drop of calculus. I have not needed any calculus. I have needed the concept of ohm’s law (that increased resistance will decrease current aka blood flow or actual current in the heart). I could maybe benefit from some orgo now that I’m in my PhD years but my PI keeps telling me we’ll just get a medicinal chemist involved if it really comes to that as he remembers even less orgo than I do.</p>
<p>Lemaitre,</p>
<p>Do you know why the OB/GYN chair asked those questions? The laser one actually makes sense but the others don’t.</p>
<p>This post started with
I wonder whether the traditional medical school requirements truly help to breed the best physicians.
The Albany, HPME, PLME, Rice/Baylor, Baylor/Baylor, Case Western, Rochester, Pittsburgh, UKMC represent an evolution of traditional PRE MED/MED education.
nervedoctor said it best; no one has addressed the virtue of maturity and balance in the education of a physician.
The comments about the science kids from high school excelling in more math and science and the need to be well versed in orgo is well taken. The programs listed above and the Mount Sinai program are balancing the basis of science with more well rounded approach. Look at the value Lemaitre1 brought to his fellow docs to be. I have to think the computer science/other majors as well as students who have worked in the real world before progressing will have helpful insight as well.</p>
<p>In regard to languages specifically, D. has found that knowing languages ahs opened some doors for more experiences and chances at positive comments from supervisors. She has not paid much attention to foreign languages in UG, but placing right into 3rd year in Spanish gave her ability to speak and she knows another language. Both so far have been her advantage. In the school with huge percetanges of Chinese Medical students, knowing foreign languages outside of mandarin seems to be an advantage. I would say that studying mandarin as a foreign language seems to be less desirable comapared to others since there so many already who are fluent in mandarin at Med. Schools.</p>
<p>I just stumbled upon an article on this very topic today:</p>
<p>[MCAT</a> to add psych, sociology, biochem ? Brown Daily Herald](<a href=“http://www.browndailyherald.com/2012/02/03/mcat-to-add-psych-sociology-biochem/]MCAT”>http://www.browndailyherald.com/2012/02/03/mcat-to-add-psych-sociology-biochem/)</p>
<p>I went to the web page. I see the following:</p>
<p>Students will have to complete two semesters of college biology OR two semesters of college chemistry.
The two-semester requirement can cover any discipline of biology or chemistry, including Biochemistry, Genetics, Molecular Biology, Pharmacology, Cell Biology, Physiology, Microbiology, Immunobiology, etc.
AP or IB credit cannot substitute this requirement. If you have received college credit from AP or IB course work, higher level science courses must be taken to fulfill this requirement
Course work must be completed by the January 15 application deadline.</p>
<p>The Biology courses aren’t Introductory courses. They assume that some such courses as prerequisites.</p>
<p>This means that not just anybody can apply.</p>
<p>i think you’re misreading it. Intro bio courses sound like they would count - you just can’t use AP credit instead.</p>
<p>Just met a new attending right out of residency. His UGD was in economics from a 2nd tier school. He was a successful music composer too. Extremely pleasant to work with. But he continued the trend of unexpected premed backgrounds that I’ve been coming across.</p>