BYU - So Upsetting Reading/Watching This

http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/29/health/brigham-young-university-rape/

I saw this yesterday, it was heartbreaking!

Let’s prevent sexual assault by expelling rape victims for being under the influence. Ugh.

There’s hardly a detail in that story that doesn’t disgust me. I hope the Department of Education takes notice.

It is troubling, but unsurprising. The Latter Day Saints (Mormon) Church has long history of racism and sexism. I mean, The Church allowed polygamy into the 1900’s and they didn’t fully accept black people until 1978, so it isn’t surprising that their views on rape are anachronistic and misogynistic. The surprising thing to me is that students and parents decide that attending BYU is a good idea.

They have already shown that they have no interest in doing the right thing. Now they will decide what is the least that they can do to get the story out of the news and go back to misogyny as usual.

I hope that their enrollment plummets.

Appalling. Amnesty rules protecting students who call emergency help for a peer in distress have saved many lives. A school that takes safety seriously must do the same for students who seek help for themselves. Honor codes and moral rules at private schools are fine, but there needs to be some sanity and compassion in the way it’s enforced.

@mazeArtCrew “I hope that their enrollment plummets.”

It won’t hurt enrollment at all because close to 100% of the student body is LDS. They will privately see this as an external threat to the Church and BYU that requires circling the wagons and defending both.

I agree that BYU has the right to do virtually whatever they wish to do at a private school and in the name of religion. Students agree to that when they attend, but why do public schools participate in activities with a school that does not treat women equally and rarely accepts non-LDS students? BYU has a right to these behaviors, but playing them at football or basketball gives tacit approval to these behaviors. Why are Michigan State and UCLA agreeing to play football this year against a school that would find almost all of the students in MSU and UCLAs student bodies to be unacceptable because they are not LDS, and does not treat women as equals? To me agreeing to play them is just a wink that says that misogyny and bigotry are fine with you.

This story is so sad. Also anger-inducing. Here are the two quotes (from the president and a spokeswoman) on the huge amount of effort the school is putting into fixing this appalling situation:

Wow, gosh, you’re taking input and studying information sharing and student perceptions! Do you really have the extra time left over from your busy schedule of victim blaming and persecution?

I don’t find it acceptable for the school to say anything short of “We deeply apologize for our current policy which prioritizes tossing out students who might possibly be guilty of doing something we don’t like over protecting the mental and physical health and safety of all students. We will immediately get to work on fixing this policy and in the meantime will not be handing down any honor code violations,” or words to that effect.

BYU is known for being very strong in enforcing its Honor Code, which is WAY WAY WAY different from other college honor codes that primarily cover cheating. No booze, no drugs, no profanity, no porn, no sex, no homosexual behavior of any kind.

The press reports don’t say whether or not the men involved were BYU students. If yes, they also should be getting Honor Code punishments just for having any kind of sex at all (consensual or not). Would be interesting to know what has happened to the guys involved.

For decades, BYU has made news for frequently suspending or expelling pretty large numbers of male athletes (which are the stories that you can find in published news reports) for drugs, booze, DUIs, consensual sex, theft, robbery, assault and other misdeeds. If there’s any suggestion that the sex was forcible, the guys are summarily expelled (since even consensual sex is a violation at BYU). BYU’s Honor Code on sex is much much tougher than title ix is.

Just a few years back BYU made national headlines for suspending star basketball player Brandon Davies for the season. At the time (remember Jimmer Fredette?) BYU was ranked #3 in the country and was in contention for an NCAA national championship. Why? Because he admitted to having consensual pre-marital sex with his non-BYU student girlfriend.

So unless BYU is letting the male students involved skate (which would be very inconsistent with their past record on this stuff) it seems quite misleading to suggest (as these press reports do) that BYU is using the Honor Code to shield male sexual transgressors.

@northwesty
I haven’t read the other stories you mention, but I didn’t see anything in the linked story suggesting that the honor code is being used to shield rapists (although certainly it could be). I think only one of the stories involved other students and I don’t believe it mentioned what, if anything, happened to them.

What I am seeing is students who are terrified to report a serious violent crime when they may themselves have committed a violation of the honor code (or they think BYU will see it that way). And from what the story says, this extends even to reporting their crimes to the police. So we end up with students who have been raped but are terrified that even if the rape was committed off campus by a non-student and reported only to the local police, the report will end up at BYU and they’ll be expelled. No matter how seriously BYU takes its honor code, it is morally wrong, imo, to follow it to the point that violent crimes are going unreported and unpunished.

It’s one of those stories that makes you shake your head and wonder if this is really 2016 and not 1956.

It may sound harsh, but I’m with BYU on this one.

This victim was dropping acid as a BYU student. That’s always going to be a problem at BYU, and this student is flat out refusing to comply with BYU’s honor code procedures which clearly apply to that behavior. You don’t have to cooperate with the Honor Code system if you don’t want to. But if you refuse like that, you shouldn’t expect to continue as a BYU student. BYU is not Utah State.

She’d probably just get a minor suspension or some other kind of mild punishment (like required counseling for drug use) if she complied. But since she was also raped, her position boils down to that BYU has no right to discipline her for dropping acid. If you feel that way, then BYU isn’t going to be the school for you.

The hoops player BYU suspended for having sex wasn’t kicked out of school. He was kicked off the hoops team for the balance of one season. He later rejoined the team, served as a team captain, and graduated from BYU.

I think the press coverage on this story is pretty slanted and misleading. The student is not being punished for reporting a rape. She’s being punished for refusing to cooperate and accept possible punishment for hard drug use that clearly violates BYU’s code.

It is very telling (and probably very unfair reporting) that the CNN report says nothing about what BYU did to the male BYU student that raped the girl. Would you feel differently about this story if CNN mentioned that BYU expelled the guy and the guy is being criminally prosecuted? I would.

In the absence of much information I’m with BYU on this one also. If she was doing drugs, she was breaking the BYU rules. The rape is a separate issue and she can afford herself of the criminal justice system if she has a grievance regarding that issue. She is being punished not for the alleged sexual assault but for breaking the rules she knew about before enrolling in BYU. BYU can also investigate the person she accused and may very well have, but again we have biased reporting. I am not opposed to colleges and universities upholding both their individual rules as well as local criminal codes. Many sexual assaults happen because both parties were drinking and underage. One can only ask, would the alleged crime have occurred if both underage students were not drinking? It would be unjust to hold only one party accountable to a stricter measure or to ignore one party’s participation in illegal activity separate from any other grievance they have. And again we have a young woman who declined criminal investigation and “tried” to resolve her issues with only the college knowing full well she violated the rules to begin with. There are separate issues here and little detail. BUT and it’s a big “but” I do not think colleges should proceed with investigations and without the cooperation of an accuser and the second “but” is if kids aren’t supposed to be drinking and having sex and decide to enroll at a college that says that is a no-no then they alone are responsible for abiding by those rules or accepting or fighting the consequences depending on the circumstances.

I’m not in favor of granting immunity. That is way to close to protectionism and special class for my taste. If you haven’t broken the rules you don’t need immunity.

I’m guessing that BYU expelled the guys involved with this incident within minutes of the victim’s report. Something the press reports don’t say anything about. Since their conduct would have been an outrageous violation of the BYU Honor Code. Because of their aggressive enforcement of their Honor Code, BYU doesn’t need to worry about consent as a defense or title ix burdens of proof and procedures when it comes to dealing with sexual misbehaviors.

Which makes this story (and its likely misleading reporting slant) quite ironic. If you are a sexual assault victim, BYU is probably the best school in the country for being able to get your attacker expelled quickly and easily.

But your own misdeeds can be the subject of discipline too…

@momofthreeboys - It’s not just young women who are potential rape victims at colleges. Immunity should be given to victims of violent crimes simply as a practical matter.

https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=26 is BYU’s Honor Code.

No BYU does not have any credibility in dealing with sexual misconduct. The male administrators are all hypocrites, and The Honor Code is a farce. The administrators throw students out for masturbation. They do that in spite of the fact that they know they did it, and they know that well over 90% of the male students there are doing it. Sadly, they use the Honor Code to throw out the rare kid who is honest enough to tell the truth. The vast majority of the students lie, and that is fine, so it is really more of a Dishonor Code.

So that means it is like any other school then, i.e., students lie. Therefore, it is not worse than any other school except it actually punishes what it actually learns about.

What you really want is for BYU to accept behavior it learns about that is against the code and turn the other way. If it did that, then there is no code of any sort. Thus, you really do not have a point - either known, not suspected, infractions of the honor code are enforced or not. Unknown, well, is unknown, even if suspected. Cannot punish on a suspicion.

@awcntdb “What you really want is for BYU to accept behavior it learns about that is against the code and turn the other way.”

No I think they can do whatever they want, but lets not pretend there is honor in uncaught masturbators kicking out honest masturbators. Is that really your position? Get ahold of yourself, man. lol

Yes, you can punish suspicion. You can make any rules you want to. That is the point of the freedom they have. You can make essentially any rule you want to.

Otterma, I have no doubt the criminal justice system would grant amnesty to an accuser who was underage and drinking and perhaps even to the one who dropped acid. I do not think BYU has any obligation to “grant amnesty” unilaterally.

Of course BYU doesn’t have an obligation to grant amnesty. I just think that it would be pragmatic to do so. If kids are afraid to report a rape, assault, or robbery for fear that the accused will turn the tables on them, then the school is setting up conditions where serious crimes don’t get reported and perpetrators may act for years with impunity.