BYU - So Upsetting Reading/Watching This

Parents Forum
81

Me: “Again, from my perspective, the real issue here is that the school still wants government support. It can be ended by agreeing that the none of my tax money can go to research, tuition or any other form of funding or tax breaks for schools who do not afford equal rights to students, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference or religion.”

@hebegebe “Actually I believe that BYU meets that standard.”

  1. If we agree on this statement then we have no disagreement.
  2. If you are correct then BYU could put out a simple press release today that said, "BYU has decided to afford equal rights to students, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference or religion."
  3. If they put out that press release, then I would have no issue, but the LDS Church would be in meltdown mode.
  4. The fact that you think that they meet that standard just means that you know very little about the LDS Church. They don't even think they meet that standard, and have no intention of meeting it. lol

@hebegebe “But if you simply want to stop funding causes you don’t believe in, are Mormons then allowed to say that all of their taxes go only to causes they support? They would be much better off financially if that were the case.”

This is a perfect example of a straw man argument, arguing indignantly against something I did not say at all.

The government is not in the business of supporting religion. The Establishment Clause, recognizes that religious freedom thrives best when the government stays out of it. If they want to run a school where students are treated equally, then they can have government support. However, once it invokes the rules of a religious organization, and does not agree to afford equal rights to students, regardless of gender, race, sexual preference or religion, then that changes.

I am not supporting special rules for groups I like and don’t like. You are the one doing that. I am saying that all groups have to play by the same rules.

@hebegebe “I am an atheist. … I support freedom of religion”

Then you should agree with me, because I support freedom of religion and treating people of all beliefs equally. BYU does not support freedom of religion. If a Mormon student converts to Judaism or Islam, they are kicked out. Is that freedom of religion?

@hebegebe “In my interactions with Mormons, including some quite high up in the hierarchy, I have found them to be some of the kindest and most giving people I know.”

Congrats on knowing some kind Mormons! If you take the time, you would discover that there are kind and wonderful people who are Muslims, Christians, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, LDS and every other group. There are good and bad people of all beliefs, and people of all beliefs deserve to be treated with equal rights and respect from a government perspective.

82

“it’s just bad process to inflict punishment for lesser offenses on people entirely as a result of their having reported more serious offenses.”

Hunt – I’d agree that BYU would be in the wrong is they were EXPELLING females ENITRELY as a result of ONE instance that came to light SOLELY as a result of reporting a rape attack. The hatchet job reporting says that is what is going on. But I don’t believe that is what’s going on, and you probably don’t either.

The lead victim in the CNN and NY Times stories was suspended (not expelled) four months after the rape incident. BYU says IN WRITING it was due to continued/ongoing misdeeds involving drugs and sex. So BYU clearly disputes the story that the victim is telling (they booted me for getting raped) and that NYT and CNN reported. The omission of any information about BYU’s treatment of the male student is so glaring that I’m buying BYU’s story/credibility over the victim/CNN/NYT.

I’d agree that BYU will likely sand down the edges of their policy to make this situation go away. Which will allow them to enforce their code (which is their right).

Even if you exclude all data gathered from the rape incident, we all would doubt that acid dropping Brooke would be able to last for long at BYU.

83

@fractalmstr “Then what good is the honor code? Should they change it to the “honor guideline” instead?”

I agree with @Hunt that rules have to be intelligently applied. If not then we really don’t need judges.

Example:
Your wife is in labor and something is wrong with the delivery. As you rush to get her to the hospital you are stopped by police, who take you and your wife to jail for speeding and not having your driver’s licenses. They explain to you that traffic laws are not guidelines, and that the fact that your wife and baby may die in that jail cell is something you should have thought about before deciding to breaking the law.

No one thinks that would be a good idea, do they?

84

Try this one instead.

Husband is speeding and driving drunk with the pregnant wife. Cops take the couple to the hospital where the baby is safely delivered. Later, the cops prosecute the husband for DUI after he’s pulled over drunk for the second time and the cops also discover another DUI that preceded the baby’s birth.

That’s more accurate since Brooke was suspended four months later “because of your violation of the Honor Code including continued illegal drug use and consensual sex."

85

It’s a slippery slope - do they look the other way about what happend the day the accuser claims assault? Or do they look the other way for what was happening prior to the day of the assault in cases where there was a prior relationship? Part of an investigation is looking at all sides of the situation and it is pretty hard to ignore the elephant in the room. I think I agree that perhaps they can “sand the edges” maybe counseling instead of probation of probation instead of expulsion but whatever happens I think it would be very difficult for the college to say Yup we know you dropped acid (went to the bars regularly, had a sexual relationship outside of marriage) but we’re going to look the other way because you were injured/assaulted, etc. I don’t think BYU can get all the way to that point. There is going to have to be some balance between the individual’s violations and the rest of the community at the university.

86

I think it may be that BYU’s procedures are just a little mushy, and that they just need to make sure they are clear. It’s hard to tell how much injustice there is in any one of these cases, since we don’t have all the facts.

Still, here’s a little thought experiment. You are the administrator of BYU’s honor code, and you are presented with the following situation. Student A comes to you and confesses that she, along with B, C, and D used LSD. She says she is confessing because she feels remorse. When you confront the others with the accusation, they also confess. Now, let’s assume that you have some discretion in meting out punishments. What do you do? Do you punish all of them the same, or do you punish A less because she confessed voluntarily? If you do punish her less, does this weaken the honor code? (Let’s assume, for the sake of this discussion, that the honor code doesn’t make the failure to confess or to inform on others a separate violation.)

87

@northwesty The point of my example is to support @hunt’s comment that intelligent application of rules is required.

Your counter example is a non sequitur and has no bearing on that point. Do you agree that intelligent application of the rules is required?

88

The only way I could see the code being used as a shield is if it allowed criminals to get away with serious offenses against innocent people. In this particular case, the girl was not innocent, insofar as the honor code is concerned. She chose to break the code by going off campus to do hard drugs.

She knew what she was doing.

89

Wow @fractalmstr that sounds very much like she deserved to get raped because she went off campus and agreed to do acid. She may deserve whatever punishment comes with doing acid, but I agree that if the only way the college knows that is because a much more serious crime was reported (rape), then some adjustment needs to be made or students will probably not report serious crimes if they occur while they are in violation of the honor code. And she certainly didn’t deserve to be raped because she made a bad drug choice.

Imagine she went to the group to do acid and another student in the group was murdered. Do we want the students to have an incentive to not report it or testify because they will get in trouble for the acid? Or should we expect that because a crime happened, they need to step up and take the punishment AND report the crime too?

It’s a tricky situation all around.

90

@fractalmstr " In this particular case, the girl was not innocent, insofar as the honor code is concerned. She chose to break the code by going off campus to do hard drugs.

She knew what she was doing."

Okay, so in my prior example (post #82), is your view that the parents chose to break the law and deserve whatever happens?

91

Of course I don’t think the rape was justified because she broke the school’s rules… Rape is a serious crime, and I believe the guys involved should be held responsible for what they did, and punished as criminals.

I think the difference here is that I am treating both issues (rape & honor code) separately. The school has every right to enforce their own rules and codes, and if that means dismissing the girl for breaking these rules, I don’t really see a problem with that.

92

“Do you agree that intelligent application of the rules is required?”

I think BYU is applying their rules way more intelligently than the false premise/hatchet job reporting suggests. Again, we know it is a hatchet job because there is no mention of the discipline received by the male student attacker. If the attacker had gone unpunished, is there any chance CNN/NYT does not report that?

Brooke says she got punished for reporting the rape. BYU says she got suspended because of multiple continuing code violations. I believe BYU.

Easy fix if you are the BYU GC. We won’t use any info that stems from the rape report unless/until we independently otherwise learn of other corroborating info from other sources. So nobody gets punished JUST for reporting the rape. That’s exactly my DUI dad driving to the maternity ward.

Under BYU’s new policy (which is really their current policy), acid-dropping Brooke still gets suspended. Because she was suspended for MULTIPLE CONTINUING violations.

93

This comment is so wrongheaded that I think it proves my point better than my own arguments.

94

@Much2learn,

You are failing basic logical analysis in your responses.

On the positive side, your username is appropriate.

95

I don’t believe anybody until all the facts are dragged out. The truth is usually somewhere in the mushy middle, if you can find it at all.

96

@hebegebe “You are failing basic logical analysis in your responses.”

Can you be more specific? It seems very logical to me.

97

@awcntdb “They like who they are. It is only you thinking you can speak for them is saying they do not like who they are. You are simply way off base telling people you do not know that they do not like their lives, when you have not a clue, have never met them, and especially when they are making conscious decisions for themselves. You really need to stick to your own life and beliefs and stay out of others, especially religious beliefs.”

Another straw man argument. Imagining what I am saying instead of reading what I am saying.

“They like who they are.”

Okay. That is fine.

" It is only you thinking you can speak for them is saying they do not like who they are."

I did not say that at all. I don’t think you have basic critical reading skills.

“You are simply way off base telling people you do not know that they do not like their lives, when you have not a clue, have never met them, and especially when they are making conscious decisions for themselves.”

Pressing the attack against an imagined adversary.

“You really need to stick to your own life and beliefs and stay out of others, especially religious beliefs.”

This is my view. No government funding for religious organizations. I want to stay out of it. They fund themselves and do whatever they want.

My issue is that you want them to be free to be bigots, misogynists, racists or whatever else and you want to pay for it with my tax dollars. That violates the Establishment Clause. Why is that hard to understand? If you stop sucking from the government teat, you can do whatever you want.

98

,
@awcntdb One more try. Your position is that a private school can discriminate as it sees fit, while I oppose that view.

If Harvard were to announce tomorrow that they will no longer admit religious students of any kind, I think the government should not provide funds for a school like that. Do you still think that is fine and the government should continue to provide funding, or does your rule only apply to religious views you like?

99

The problem here is you live in the wold of non-sequiturs and lack basic logic skills.

Specfically, you wrote this: “Do you think that maybe the slaves like it?” The only logical inference to make is that you are comparing these students and what they are experiencing to being slaves because you deem their environment as bigoted and misogynistic. There is no other reason for you to make this analogy if that were not the argument you were trying to make.

You are so all over the place and disjointed in your arguments. From a religious standpoint, the answer is clearly, “No, you do not have such standing to impose your views on behavior in a religious community of which you are not a part.”

100

I suspect that one day soon, the Presidency of the LDS will have a revelation and order a change in the Honor Code. Same thing happened years ago when the President suddenly had a revelation and decided that blacks could be priests. Funny how that happens.