<p>Don’t get my wrong. I have never been in a sorority and my kids are not in the Greek system. My mention of athletics was not finger pointing away from the Greek system. I was merely pointing out that this is not confined to that system.
At any rate, my heart goes out to Carson’s family.</p>
<p>From the Tulane article linked by Midwest mom:</p>
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<p>That these sorts of incidents are the result of rogue behavior by a handful of members, and not part of the overall culture of the frat, seems not credible to me. </p>
<p>Were the pledges told up front that they did not have to comply with any activity likely to result in physical injury, and still be allowed to join, or did they subject themselves to abuse because if they refused, they would not be admitted to the frat? </p>
<p>Unless it’s part of the pledge program for brothers to be warned that physically abusive hazing would not be allowed and the pledges were present to hear and understand that they did not have to comply with any individual “brothers’” requirements that they submit to such rituals in order to be admitted, I don’t buy the argument that the fraternity as a whole is not responsible.</p>
<p>That the university plays into this subterfuge by indicating that individuals would be punished, but not necessarily the frat as a whole, is why it continues to happen. </p>
<p>When incidents like this, severe injury and death occur, the response should be much more forceful than a brief “suspension” and the prosecution of a few individuals. The frat should be closed down. That would have a real deterrent effect.</p>
<p>^^^agreed</p>
<p>if its only a few misguided individuals, then where were the other frat members to jump in and “guide” them, or at least to report them.</p>
<p>large workplaces must comply with safe and respectful workplace policies, why not fraternities~if the fraternity somehow engages in unsafe practices, (even with less severe outcomes) it should be held accountable.</p>
<p>What a tragic loss - I ache for the students and their families. I am not interested in vilifying sororities/fraternities. I think hazing should be forbidden. Period. Whether to suspend or close down or whatever I guess depends on the situation. However, Binge/over drinking is a big issue in our society overall, particularly amoung our high school and college students. Of course hazing should not be tolerated, but I have to say I wonder WHY kids often fail to call for help. In my mind (and backed up be some personal observations in our local community), one of the problems is that the kids are frightened of getting themselves OR their friend in trouble. Of course, it is obvious to us that they should not be drinking so much and that they should call for help if there is trouble, but when we make the punishments and consequences so severe, imo we encourage kids NOT to call. </p>
<p>I wish there was some sort of “good samaritan” law/code that would leave kids free to call for help without fear of serious legal charges. I know of a girl (top student, not a “partier”)in our community who drank way too much with some friends at a very small house party. She “passed out” or became otherwise non-responsive. The kids called 911 - the girl got immediate help and was completely fine by morning. I was so happy and proud that those kids were more interested in the health and welfare of their friend than in the consequences. However, they were charged with underage drinking, had the ability to get their driver’s licenses delayed by about a year (I don’t know the exact timing…) or taken away, were suspended from sports teams, etc… Who knows how that will affect their records, college apps, or whatever. Unfortunately, I fear that the lesson all the other kids at the school and in the community learned was… DON’T CALL - you’ll get everyone in huge trouble. </p>
<p>I am no expert, but I do wonder if we should focus not on harsh punishment (consequences and lessons and talking and grounding or whatever, yes of course, just not so severe that they refuse to call because they are too scared to come to us or the police or health authorities), but rather on changing our culture of hazing,hiding, secrecy and “pre-gaming.” It is easier said than done, but I wish the kids could learn “healthier” attitudes towards alcohol - it seems hard to accomplish that when the drinking is done underground - quickly, secretly and not as part of any other social event and with no adults present to model moderation. Many of us had an 18-yr old drinking age. Many of us drank in college (and even high school), some legally, some not. Was it a good idea? Probably not. Was it a fact? Yes. </p>
<p>I know I will probably get flamed for this post. I do not claim to know the answers or the best way to address the problems of binge drinking, hazing or underage consumption. But I think it is clear that we what we doing is not working and, in fact, may be getting worse. I am going to use the post as an opportunity to remind my teenage sons about the dangers of hazing AND how important it is to look out for their friends and peers no matter what. I just hope they wouldn’t get punished for “doing the right thing” even if the right thing followed a mistake or poor choice.</p>
<p>Wow, travelfun, what an excellent post. I found myself agreeing with pretty much everything that you wrote. I too have often wondered how many alcohol-related ‘incidents’ could have been prevented if a person’s friends were not afraid of potential criminal charges that almost always seem to be levied when someone chooses to do the responsible thing and call for help. At my current school, whenever an ambulance is called to treat someone for alcohol poisoning, the police respond as well, and typically end up charging everyone still left around if they are under 21. Such policies do nothing to encourage “responsible” drinking amongst college students. </p>
<p>Policies towards drinking, particularly underage drinking, need to change. I can remember getting a drinking ticket in high school after blowing a .03 (walking, not driving, nonetheless) and thinking, “Well, if the charge is the same regardless, I’m not going to get short-changed on any future drinking tickets; I’m going to go all out and at least make it worthwhile.” Not the smartest strategy, I’ll admit, but I was in high school and it made sense at the time. </p>
<p>I can also remember a meeting that the state alcohol agents here (ALE) arranged with all of the upperclassmen of my high school shortly before prom my senior year. The agent told us matter of factly that if they pulled over a car that had a person under 21 under the influence, the driver would be charged with possession of alcohol as well. When asked if such a policy would be dangerous as it would discourage people from choosing to be designated drivers, he deferred, saying that we didn’t need to drink anyways. The impact? No one wanted to DD after prom, because they were afraid of being punished for being responsible friends. As a result, plenty of people were driving that shouldn’t have been that night.</p>
<p>“At my current school, whenever an ambulance is called to treat someone for alcohol poisoning, the police respond as well, and typically end up charging everyone still left around if they are under 21. Such policies do nothing to encourage “responsible” drinking amongst college students.”</p>
<p>while I can understand your point, that others who may have not even been drinking should not be disciplined, with all due respect, drinking and or letting someone else drink to the point of alcohol poisoning is not considered responsible drinking. perhaps to avoid the police and this predicament, help your fellow student before they require an ambulance.</p>
<p>The issues of hazing and voluntary binge drinking should remain separate. It’s one of the favorite tactics of people keen on protecting the “rights” of fraternities to muddy the waters by mixing the issue. While both issues deal with excessive drinking in a social context, there is a world of difference between making poor decisions and being forced to endanger yourself. </p>
<p>Since it’s a given that national fraternities have been unable to control their local chapters, there is no other solution that having consequences that match the crimes. Fraternities that have caused the death of a pledge should be closed and forever banned to reopen in ANY campus in the United States. Only such a penalty facing each chapter AND the national organization will send the right message. </p>
<p>And, again, why would the fraternities be worried about a practice that is supposed to not exist?</p>
<p>Question:</p>
<p>Why on earth would any student voluntarily submit himself to the humiliation (and more) that is meted out by these despicable organizations?</p>
<p>Perhaps some honest reflection upon this question by college students would reduce the attraction of fraternities.</p>
<p>^^</p>
<p>At best, it can be fun, and at worst, you know it only lasts a few weeks and you are done with it forever.</p>
<p>Once you are through pledging and an actual brother, the benefits are endless. Increased social opportunities, lifelong friendships with people who went through the same thing with you, and sick parties. Not to mention that grad schools and potential employers love seeing Greek organizations on applications and resumes-many of this nation’s top business and political leaders were themselves Greek back in college and know about the enormous responsibilities that come with Greek life.</p>
<p>Cal Poly SLO has a dry campus in the sense that they have a very strict policy about alcohol in dorms and they have been known to kick students out of dorms for possession of alcohol. I realize a frat is different but this is a school that actually has been far more aggressive with alcohol than many schools which turn a blind eye, or even allow school funds to pay for alcohol. This isn’t a problem just with frats, by the way, the whole thing of pre-gaming and drinking like crazy is a big problem. When my daughter was in college, she found a friend late one night quite ill from alcohol, kind of passed out on the ground outside. She got him help and stayed with him until morning. I think her school had made quite a point of how to identify when someone is in trouble and so forth. She knew what to do (although i think in a pinch, she would have called 911.)</p>
<p>Statement from Cal Poly President Warren J. Baker:</p>
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Thank you. This is what many of us want to see in cases such as those described.</p>
<p>^^yes, this is what seems needed. sad that it takes the death of a young man for the additional actions to be taken</p>
<p>Travelfun=I totally agree with everything you said. Kids aren’t going to stop drinking, and the stupid 21 drinking age is just that, puritan and stupid. If you want to live like total ascetics and deny yourself all pleasures, that’s fine, but don’t force me to do it too. I wonder how many serious injuries, car accidents, deaths, etc. could have been prevented if there was a “no questions asked” policy in place for treating alcohol poisoning. You call an ambulance for alcohol poisoning, they treat you, then release you, no questions asked. Ever.</p>
<p>Anyways, NYU’s policy is that if you can legally drink, by all means go ahead, even in the dorms. The residence hall rules state that students under 21 can’t keep alcohol in their rooms, but makes no mention of students who are or over 21. Anyways, what kind of ****ing moron came up with that number? What changes between 20 years and 364 days 23 hours and 59 minutes old and 21.0000 years old that would all of a sudden make you responsible enough to drive a rental car, drink, or have access to your own trust fund and in some states, drive unrestricted, which you couldn’t do two seconds ago? I know kids much younger than me who are very reliable and I’ve also met people twice my age who I wouldn’t trust to run a bath.</p>
<p>I’ll assume you’re not a parent, even though this is the Parents Forum. But you are probably right: from a public health perspective, the drinking age should actually be 25, not 21, the point at which risks for long-term alcohol-related problems, alcoholism, cirrhosis, liver cancer, etc., as well as DUI fatalities, alcohol-related rapes and sexual assaults, and ER admissions for alcohol poisonings actually decline. Perhaps we could issue a special license to drink for those who are only 21 if they have clean records, and take a “safe drinking” course.</p>
<p>"At best, it can be fun, and at worst, you know it only lasts a few weeks and you are done with it forever.</p>
<p>Once you are through pledging and an actual brother, the benefits are endless. Increased social opportunities, lifelong friendships with people who went through the same thing with you, and sick parties. Not to mention that grad schools and potential employers love seeing Greek organizations on applications and resumes-many of this nation’s top business and political leaders were themselves Greek back in college and know about the enormous responsibilities that come with Greek life."</p>
<p>What lame excuses for “Greek life.” Laughable. Simply laughable.</p>
<p>When I was on campus, the point of being greek was being exclusive. Maybe greeks filled student leadership positions, I don’t know, but I do know that they didn’t lead me. Their visible priorities consisted of impressing each other and everyone else by the most superficial of measures: the prettiest girls, the most sought-after star athletes, the drunkest parties. They mingled with non-greeks only when necessary, primarily in classrooms, and showed no interest in involving themselves with anyone else except to parade their supposed superiority over every other form of campus life. As Cuse0507 acknowleges, this silly status-consciousness and snobbery which is honed to a fine point in college continues long after:</p>
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<p>The greek system is an anachronism. I am glad that my D is going to a college that doesn’t have it.</p>