@knowledgegood – you want an “intelligent” (your word) discussion? I suggest you look at the posts that actually have, you know, data to support their claims.
When some one says a class a people and then mentions South Korea I will call it out. Not gaslighting, sorry. My son goes to school with amazing kids from all over the world and none of them are robots, sorry, this is a stereotype that needs to end. California has lots of educational opportunities for all.
@VickiSoCal I see your point and apologize that my post came across that way. I was trying to respond to a comment that implied that merit at the UCs was essentially meaningless or non-existent. But no, that doesn’t do much about the original issue of kids not getting in other than maybe making the desirability of the campuses a little more even.
Since most of the UCs rank course rigor, GPA, and tests scores as “most important” instead of being bitter, I would make sure those 3 areas are covered very well if you want to get into these state schools. It’s an extremely competitive landscape now with 100k+ applicants for our state flagships.
Just a note. The enticement to leave the state is not new. 17 years ago things were still quite predictable, and my high stat, NM qualifying kid was accepted to Berkeley as anticipated, as well as being offered small merit awards at other colleges. But we were also deluged with mail offering $$ at out of state publics like ASU. My son wanted a LAC rather than large u. environment, and with financial aid, there were out of state private options that were financially competitive.
So I think if anything, finances have been a driver for leaving the state long before the current admission frenzy.
The current problem isn’t due to an exodus out of state. Quite the opposite: it is a result of too many academically competetive applicants, suggesting far too many students who want to remain in-state.
Here is the comforting truth for any CA student or parent who wants to make a decision to approach college applications intelligently and peacefully. (And it is your decision.) What the state mostly now lacks in public K-12 education it more than makes up for it in Higher Education. (Please, no rants about how a particular charter or public was an exception; I’m merely speaking, as a teacher and consultant in public schools, about the general trend & devolution in CA, due to all kinds of public policies and demographics which have caused the K-12 system to deteriorate.)
Both on the public and private level in higher education, there is much from which to choose, without resorting to a sense of “compromise.” Unlike many states, CA has a full range, for those who insist/demand to stay in-state. Observe its wonders even apart from Stanford:
The 9 campuses of the UC system, which include transfer options within that system.
Private universities and colleges such as USC, Santa Clara U, Occidental, Pepperdine, University of the Pacific, University of San Diego, University of San Francisco, and many more
An actual consortium known as The Claremont Colleges
The variegated, diverse CSU system, with its many campuses, transfer possibilities, and differentiated opportunities
The guaranteed transfer option between community colleges and UC.
So anyone with an absolutist geographical preference should, again, own the preference. Within that preference, he or she is choosing among what is available. It doesn’t matter what the reason is for the preference, and it’s nobody’s business what motivates that preference. But there is no inherent “right” to the most (perceived) elite of those options “just because” the student has chosen CA as his or her preference. Own it, just own it.
I think “some” is a lot more accurate than “most”. In our area with 2 top high schools close by, the vast majority of top kids are going to a UC or Cal Poly vs some other state’s flagship. About 70% that apply are accepted to at least 1 UC from these schools according to stats published by UC. USC has a lower acceptance rate than any UC now, so I don’t think anyone is being pushed there. USC is actively trying to pull those kids in. The really top kids aren’t choosing out of state publics for the most part, they are choosing Stanford, the Ivies, Cal, UCLA, USC, or a small LAC. A few do go to Georgia Tech, UIUC, or Michigan, but that seems to be more by choice from what I know. That’s at least the view from one district, YMMV.
I find that interesting. We have always stressed to our kids that they need to follow their passions wherever it leads them. I don’t think that either of them is assuming (or wanting) to remain local - it’s a big world out there. Son is taking Mandarin to supplement his study of AI.
One factor that doesn’t seem to be mentioned is the dramatic increases in home prices in parts of CA like the Bay Area and the accompanying high salaries due to the high cost of living in those areas. That forces many families to be full pay at private (and a few top public OOS) schools which use the CSS Profile and don’t give merit aid, even though those families may not feel that well off.
So I wonder how many of the complaints are coming from parents who saw Berkeley/UCLA (and even the mid ranking UCs) as a relatively cheap option compared to what they would have to pay OOS for a comparably prestigious school? Do those parents feel that their kids are instead having to “settle” for a lower ranking OOS school where they can get merit aid?
Yes, let’s put all the blame on a “class” of people known as Koreans… smh.
Not to delve into racial identity and politics but one can be racist against one’s own race.
“It seems to me the state of California is pushing most of its best, most creative, most charismatic students to USC, Washington, Arizona, Colorado, Oregon, the Big10…”
Are you referring to the UC policies pushing kids to these schools or California schools in general. First off USC is in California, second many of the best students in Ca (and best is very subjective) stay in state and attend Stanford, Cal Tech, the Claremont consortium, and the top UCs. The rest go to ivies, MIT, Chicago, Rice and the top academic schools in the big ten - NW, Mich, UI, Purdue.
“Are teens in California happier than they were 30 years ago? No.”
I agree with this point. My son’s school has had to introduce many programs to reduce student stress and depression.
“Berkeley used to be known as the most creative campus in the world, now faculty I know there tell me it’s all excellent sheep rote robots.”
I heard this sentiment echoed by a Caltech professor as well who lamented that the focus on test scores meant that the newer admits lacked the “quirky creativity” that made Caltech unique.
I have been wondering about this. Has the change in the admissions landscape changed the college experience. If professors are unhappy with the results, I wonder if they can push for a change in policy for admitting students - find a way to select for some of those quirky craetive types. Alternatively, assuming all those kids still exist and haven’t had the creativity wrung out of them by the college application process, they must be going somewhere. Where are the new creative, quirky, individualistic campuses?
Most of California’s best and brightest attend UCs. Some go elsewhere. In my kid’s high schools, the ones that went elsewhere tended to be the ones who didn’t get into the UCs/Cal Polys.
In looking at a list of my graduating seniors on my kid’s sports team, there are 2 UCSCs, 2 UCDs, 2 SLO’s, one SDSU, two UCSBs.
You want to talk about a brain drain go read the Chicago Tribune’s article about Illinois students. 45.7% of its seniors went out of state for college.
I find it interesting that so often people from other states take great delight in predicting California’s demise. I swear I’ve been reading about it my entire life.
@gallentjill I also spoke with an administrator from Caltech, and what I gathered was that professors and administrators have different goals.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out for universities in the coming years.
@gallentjill:
“Where are the new creative, quirky, individualistic campuses?”
I would say look to LACs. Top-notch ones that aren’t ranked tippy-top by US News like Reed, NCF, Oberlin, Wesleyan, etc.
But also UCSC (which top CA kids seem to look down upon) and CCS in UCSB.
I’d say the pressures of getting a good job are what’s destroyed the ‘quirky’ vibe of colleges. With so much uncertainty around careers and jobs there’s not as much flexibility to ‘explore yourself’. Not sure that’s confined to California.
@katliamom
I am comfortable that the points I referenced by @midwestsahm points are easy to understand.
I’m amused, bemused, and perturbed by the posts that seem to suggest that it’s somehow inappropriate for a California kid to want and aspire to remain in state for college.
@AboutTheSame, I agree! Both of my California kids wanted to stay in state for college. They really like it here, and couldn’t see themselves going anywhere else. One went to an in-state private school, and one is currently at a UC. They were both happy with their choices.