Caltech vs. Harvey Mudd

College Search & Selection
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<p>I'm currently attempting to decide between the two, and have not gotten very far yet. I've visited both, and I really do like both of them. I plan to major in CS, or maybe math. </p>

<p>When I visited, I liked the students I met at Caltech a bit better (admittedly, I didn't talk to that many. The ones I talked to are from Lloyd, but I also know and like a guy from Blacker. I don't know much about the houses except that they have different personalities. I ate dinner at Lloyd, and found it a lot of fun. I don't know how representative that is), and I really love how much freedom they have to modify their dorms and wander around. On the other hand, I've heard the teaching is variable, and that does worry me. At Mudd, I didn't like the students AS much (but I liked them a lot when I visited before). I think this may be because I mostly talked to people in East, and I didn't like all of them that much. I visited for Fall FAST there earlier, stayed in South, and liked the people quite a bit more. I also have a $10 000 scholarship per year from Mudd. HMC is more expensive than Caltech at first, so the scholarship makes Caltech about $6000-7000 more expensive (they have different food plans, and estimates for books and personal expenses). </p>

<p>I know Mudders seem to like their food, but I found it heavy and icky. It didn't taste good and I didn't feel good after eating it (I tried a few different meals. I had no idea rice and vegetables could be that heavy). How easy is it to eat at the other campuses, and would that hurt my social life at Mudd? Is the food at those places better and less heavy/fatty? I'm not interested in health food necessarily, I just cannot have very heavy food. Also, how easy is it to cook there? As in, get groceries, and how are the dorm kitchens? I ask mostly because unless I want to eat salads for the next four years, I really cannot eat almost anything there without feeling a bit sick. Caltech's food was fine, but I'd still have to make myself food on the weekends. I'm told there is a good grocery store in an under 10 min walk from the dorms there. </p>

<p>Okay, now for the academics. Obviously, both places are excellent academically. I have however heard that Caltech doesn't provide as much support and the professors can be rather inept at explaining the material. How are they? Also, is the difficulty lack of clarity or excessive speed? (I figure with excessive speed a. someone will understand it, b. they may be able to explain it comprehensibly during office hours). Is one of the places better academically in CS or Math? How important does research end up being as an undergrad, and how do the two compare in that? Is it easier to get at one? Is it easier to get into the stuff you are more interested in? Play a bigger role in the research? Other aspects I'm not thinking of? Also, I am not at all opposed to seeking help if I need it. If I struggle with the work, I will ask for help. How good are the resources if you have trouble and ask for help? I know Mudd will make sure you get the help even if you don't feel comfortable asking for it, but how is Caltech with helping those who ask? How much does the collaboration compensate for any less than ideal profs? How easy is it to take classes off campus at either of these places? I know both of them have systems in place for that, and I really adore art. (whether or not I go to Caltech, I shall certainly spend some time painting there... the campus is far too gorgeous to resist). Also, I like challenging classes. I cannot claim to enjoy severe limits on my free time, but I really love classes that push me beyond where I thought my limits were (I haven't yet found a class that pushes me past them, but I doubt that would be as fun). I also am not as hung up on grades as most. I'm completely okay with B's, and perhaps some C's at schools like those. I do realize that if the average GPA is just above a 3.0, getting a ton of A's is highly unlikely. The students at both complain about the insane workload (although at both places, found lots of time to talk). Are they so stressful for a student who does not tend to get stressed about grades?</p>

<p>Any advice, input, stories, etc would be appreciated. Thanks!</p>

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<p>I’m sure you’ll find at least one dining hall in the 5C’s you’ll love (coming from a Pomona student). Personally I love Harvey Mudd’s dining hall but if it wasn’t your thing there’s 5 other ones to choose from.</p>

<p>Sorry thats the only thing I can help you with…</p>

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<p>Caltech! It has really, really good research opportunities and a better reputation then Harvey Mudd</p>

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<p>I’d pick Caltech. Caltech already is what Mudd aspires to become. Among tech schools Caltech is often viewed as rival to MIT. Harvey Mudd is at best a distant third.</p>

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<p>Thanks Anonymous! That’s actually very helpful. I love food, but my stomach is not so fond of certain types; it’s the picky eater. Luckily I eat breakfast at the Hoch though… walking very far at all doesn’t happen first thing in the morning. </p>

<p>I’ve attempted not to dwell heavily on reputation, as I figure that could lead to an unpleasant four years at a school I’ll enjoy having attended but dislike actually living there. Mudd does seem to have a good enough reputation with employers and such, who I care about (actually, if I wanted to get a job back in the Midwest right after graduation, I’d go to Caltech, because employers here wouldn’t know about HMC. But I’m not that picky about the location of my first job, as long as I can get one, and HMC seems quite well known among certain employers and a lot of people in CA).</p>

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<p>Caltech isn’t what Mudd “aspires to become”. The two schools serve different populations and have different purposes. Caltech is a place with more graduate students than undergrads and is a pretty big research place; Mudd is a small liberal arts college for students who want to focus on STEM fields.</p>

<p>You seem like you are really leaning towards Caltech, and honestly this may sound crazy but in the grand scheme of things an extra $24-28K total…isn’t really a huge difference to pay if you’re going to be far happier at a place. Both of them are small places where you can probably get some individualized attention and a shot at doing research. And Caltech does have a more national reputation whereas Harvey Mudd has more of a West Coast reputation - a lot of East Coasters and Midwesterners may not really be familiar with HMC.</p>

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<p>To address a few of your points, East dorm is typically where the Computer Science majors end up, which is a certain culture in itself and not really representative of the whole campus. There are many types of people and dorm personalities and I’m pretty sure you’d be able to find a group of people you’d like.</p>

<p>Eating at any of the 5C dining halls is essentially the same, I suppose Scripps has more vegetarian options though. Cooking for yourself is generally limited to juniors and seniors because you can get your own suite kitchen but a few of the dorms have kitchens, though you have to still be on the meal plan (can get 8 meals/week at lowest).</p>

<p>Taking classes at the other 5Cs is the same as signing up for Mudd classes, though there are occasional restrictions. You’ll be able to take art classes at Scripps or Pitzer just as easily as at Mudd.</p>

<p>Classes at both schools will push you past your limits and will not be fun. How stressed you get will depend on how well you can handle that fact and how much you care about what your final GPA is. I am not the type to get stressed, but I do it at the expense of lower grades. I would warn that you need a certain level of ability to not be stressed and also not fail out, unless you’re the hard working type that somehow doesn’t get stressed? I don’t really know how that works.</p>

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<p>Sulin - I do realize that both are rather insane in terms of work, but I prefer that to the possibility of having easy classes. I somehow avoid stress pretty well while still doing my work (I get much better grades than many of my classmates who do stress a lot), but I cannot claim to be either the least stressed or have the highest gpa. I’d like to think that I have the best balance. Does one generally get pushed past one’s limits in multiple classes at once? And how frequently?</p>

<p>Does anyone have more input on the quality of the academics (teaching, research) at each place? I know HMC has the clinic program, does SURF at Caltech have more industry focused positions as well? I’d like to get practical experience in CS.</p>

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<p>Caltech is obviously infinitely superior to Harvey Mudd as far as science and math education is concerned. In fact, MIT is probably the only school in the US that I would personally consider on par with Caltech in those aforementioned areas. </p>

<p>Don’t let yourself be fooled by a High School-type mentality that values LAC-style “didatic” over substance.</p>

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<p>Bruno, I think it’s pretty presumptuous to say that “Caltech is obviously infinitely superior to Harvey Mudd for a math and science education”. Have you ever actually attended either school, or is this an opinion you picked up by looking at online rankings and surfing internet forums? Caltech has an annual party with Harvey Mudd now, and as someone who has actually met and talked to students from Harvey Mudd, I would say our two schools have far more in common that they do different in terms of education. Caltech is certainly not infinitely superior.</p>

<p>Caltech does not have an industry focused type program analogous to SURF. However, you could do what most CS majors at Caltech do for practical experience; go do an internship at Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, Google, etc.</p>

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<p>No, I have not. But it suffices to compare the quality of the faculty in the two schools and the course offerings. It speaks volumes to me.</p>

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<p>bruno123 – I have the same reaction to your post as dauntless9 has. Are you aware that the 25/75 ave. SAT scores for Mudders is 2rd highest in the country (tied w. Yale), behind only Caltech? Have you spoken with any Mudders about the quasi MS level training they receive in their junior and senior years?</p>

<p>Is your only reply that you compare the bios of the faculty (devoted primarily to Ph.D. students) and the course descriptions? Upon these two shaky pillars rests your pronouncement?</p>

<p>It should suffice that a current Caltechie like dauntless9 holds Mudders in high regard.</p>

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<p>Bruno123, I retract my prior post. I became curious what sort of person would exhibit such over-the-top, inelegant, sophomoric, if you will, thinking. I did a search on posts you have authored, and I realize you’re simply an engineer ■■■■■ living somewhere in Europe (probably Germany) with a strange fascination with higher education polls, rankings, etc. </p>

<p>Fine, be fascinated with US higher education (the object of your desire, no doubt), continue to think that “research” only matters in math and physical sciences … but please let people know in a disclaimer that you have no experience with the colleges about which you make sweeping pronouncements.</p>

<p>We can all read polls and rankings without your help.</p>

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<p>He isn’t comparing the bios, he’s comparing the number of Nobel prizes and research faculty which of course Caltech exceeds in. If he were comparing the bios he would realize that half of Mudd’s faculty have PhDs from top 10 grad schools, which isn’t even a good estimator of the quality of science and math instruction. </p>

<p>The course offerings are more limited than at Caltech so you can’t take Grad Level 4 classes, but there are plenty of Grad Level 1 and 2 classes and plenty of undergrad classes in many areas and I’m quite certain few people would run out of options.</p>

<p>bruno123 doesn’t know anything about Mudd, he has a generally hatred for LACs that is both unproductive and misinformed. Mudd isn’t even considered a LAC by most, it is a tech school that produces high quality scientists and engineers by all standards.</p>

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<p>“I’d pick Caltech. Caltech already is what Mudd aspires to become. Among tech schools Caltech is often viewed as rival to MIT. Harvey Mudd is at best a distant third.”</p>

<p>you don’t know what you’re talking about. i would be highly comfortable discussing engineering with a caltech graduate… in fact, i do it all the time at work.</p>

<p>"Caltech is obviously infinitely superior to Harvey Mudd as far as science and math education is concerned. In fact, MIT is probably the only school in the US that I would personally consider on par with Caltech in those aforementioned areas. "</p>

<p>and again, YOU, do not know what you are talking about. i went to the Viceroy in santa monica last week and guess who i bumped into? an MIT graduate in biomedical engineering. she said that she loved every minute of MIT and so we got into discussing math/science/engineering. it quickly became apparent that their curriculum, while intensive, is not like mudd’s. she told me that she loved taking applied math classes and asked if i had taken any at mudd. i said “does signals and systems count?” she asked if i had done any fourier/laplace analysis and i said “of course”. after continuing discussion it turns out that they didn’t even cover things like convolution or “advanced” time domain techniques… which are standard for every single engineer at mudd. in addition, we go up and beyond that class to require control theory. people are always amazed (at work) that i know how a state-space controller works… and how to design a PID controller not only in software but with simple electrical components… and i’m not even an electrical engineer! i’m a general engineer that works as an aerospace engineer.</p>

<p>(and yeah, she gave me her number. jk, she has a bf)</p>

<p>so i seriously challenge you to find a better prepared graduate than from hmc. like caltech, we work our butts off… though the environment is a little bit different.</p>

<p>p.s. i also spent about a year working part-time at GALCIT graduate labs. it was amazing how many people didn’t even know how to do basic laboratory stuff… like build a signal amplifier or filter box. i also spent 2 summers as a summer hire (not surf) for caltech/jpl and lived on campus with the students. imho, there was not really a difference in the intellectual capacity/abilities of caltechers vs mudders.</p>

<p>so there you have it. turns out us mudders and JUST as nerdy as techers. after all, our name is mudd and we’re proud of it.</p>

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<p>“No, I have not. But it suffices to compare the quality of the faculty in the two schools and the course offerings. It speaks volumes to me.”</p>

<p>lame! you get added to my profile! woo!</p>

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<p>rocketDA: as you have been rather vocal on the HMC and Caltech boards, I know that you have spent a fair bit of time at both. What insights do you have about the differences? I would not be deciding between these two if I thought that one wasn’t as strong academically, particularly in the areas I’m interested in. (math and cs, which do not require lots of funding, so they are easier to access without much trouble). I’m asking mostly about the quality of teaching at Caltech and how students at both schools approach a class where the teaching is not the best (which will happen everywhere, it’s rather inevitable, just it’s more common some places than others).</p>

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<p>CalTech is…CalTech…nothing should be mistaken for this.</p>

<p>however</p>

<p>I would imagine at the graduate school admittance level and at the hiring level of undergraduates by industry, the undergraduates from these two schools would be considered somewhat similar in quality.</p>

<p>Athough the student/teacher ratio of CalTech is the lowest in the country, its emphasis on grauduate teaching leads one to believe that the quality of undergraduate teaching of Harvey Mudd is comparable to that of CalTech.</p>

<p>Not mentioned previously, but somewhat important to many prspective students is the interaction with students from four other great colleges (Pomona, Pitzer, Scripps and Claremont Mens) that is offered to HM students, as well as the ability to take classes at these other schools that are not in the area of science, math and engineering.</p>

<p>we have one fortunate OP here that is about to enter a beautiful four hard working years of considerable top quality learning at whichever school he chooses to attend.</p>

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<p>Claremont “Men’s” hasn’t been a men’s college for a good many years. It is not Claremont Mckenna College and its coed.</p>

1 Like
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<p>^^ Oh, sure… right, hehehe, next you’ll be telling me that Scripps is coed too… jeez.</p>