Caltech vs MIT for engineering

<p>As far as rigor goes, there's more expected and required of students at Caltech than at MIT. The fact of the matter is that the easiest core courses at Caltech are harder than the easiest at MIT. </p>

<p>As for the close-knit community, the house system at Caltech is something you're a member of for as long as you want. It's not based on where you live and it doesn't fall apart at the end of every year. Most people are a member of their houses for 4 years and are active even while living off campus, in apartments. If your close-knit community is based on the hall you live in, it can't have many relationships more than one year old, so the relationships won't be as strong. Also, if you'd rather live in an apartment (as I would), you miss out on this experience. The virtue of Caltech's system is it's permanence in your life for all 4 years while you're here, regardless of where you live.</p>

<p>You can have your seasons if you want. I had so much fun this last week watching the NorthEast completely blanketed with snow while we were having gorgeous 70+ degree weather. If I ever feel the need for snow, I can just head up to the mountains for the weekend.</p>

<p>"As for the close-knit community, the house system at Caltech is something you're a member of for as long as you want. It's not based on where you live and it doesn't fall apart at the end of every year.Most people are a member of their houses for 4 years and are active even while living off campus, in apartments. If your close-knit community is based on the hall you live in, it can't have many relationships more than one year old, so the relationships won't be as strong"</p>

<p>I dont quite get the reason that the close-knit community is supposed to fall apart at the end of every year. There is no moving away from your hall if you dont want to, no year end housing lottery. If you know any people from EC they form groups as tigh kmit as i could imagine, a lot of of them even chose to live in the same spot as a GRT while doing grad work. Options, you could live here there or anywhere ,same goes for food.</p>

<p>"As far as rigor goes, there's more expected and required of students at Caltech than at MIT. The fact of the matter is that the easiest core courses at Caltech are harder than the easiest at MIT."</p>

<p>Easiest core courses , ill give you the benefit of the doubt that the easiest core courses are harder but there also the only core courses in most cases. Most core courses have more than one version 8.01T/8.012/8.01x ,18.01/18.014/18.013, you have to admit there are more options.</p>

<p>Only they who have already attended both schools can really understand the comparison. 2bad4u, there're a bunch of ex-Caltech students at MIT, why don't you find one of them and ask them directly?</p>

<p>We all know MIT and Caltech are awesome schools, so STOP COMPARING.</p>

<p>Both schools have thier +'s and -'s and probably no one can attend both as an undergrad hence it would be impossible to ever find out which school is better.</p>

<p>hmmm.... unless ..... somebody .. </p>

<p>transfers :D</p>

<p>hello,</p>

<p>We're not comparing as to say which one is better, this is a neutral comparison.</p>

<p>I refer to grad students. I've never seen an MIT undergrad student transfer to CIT or vice versa.</p>

<p>hello, I usually agree with you that comparisons are annoying, but I think we're all trying to be impartial while discussing differences in specific areas. I think that type of discussion is <em>very</em> relevant to students choosing between the two schools. If you don't like the discussion, feel free not to read it.</p>

<p>2bad4u, I didn't know there was no housing lottery at the end of every year. I stand corrected. However, my point stands that there's no way to be a part of that environment while living off-campus. Also, yes there are more options for core classes. In fact, there are probably more options for classes in most areas -- that's an advantage of a large school.</p>

<p>I agree that Caltech is more rigorous than MIT in the sense that there is a wider variety of easier classes and easier majors at MIT and so in that sense, there are more places to 'hide'. MIT is therefore more accomodating to students who find that they can't or don't want to work hard and/or don't want to study technical subjects than is Caltech. In that sense, Caltech is more rigorous.</p>

<p>However, whether that rigor is really a good or a bad thing is, I suppose, in the eye of the beholder. The fact is, a significantly larger percentage of students at Caltech than at MIT will not graduate. Put another way, a given incoming student is more likely to eventually get a degree from MIT than he will from Caltech. Maybe that degree will not be in a subject that he really wants to study (i.e. maybe that student wanted to study EE but he either can't or doesn't want to study as hard as needed to get that EE degree, so he instead gets a degree in a less demanding subject), and maybe that student gets low grades, but at least he manages to graduate. </p>

<p>Hence, whether rigor is a good or a bad thing depends on whether a particular student can take the rigor. For those students who can take the Caltech rigor, then it's probably a good thing. But there are some students at Caltech who can't or don't want to take the rigor. For them, the rigor is obviously a very bad thing.</p>

<p>Which leads me to the possibly controversial conclusion that Caltech may need to look at its admissions policies and raise its standards and not admit borderline students, because these students are the ones who are most likely to encounter academic difficulty at Caltech. You aren't doing anybody any favors by admitting somebody only to watch him flunk out or drop out from frustration. </p>

<p>Some of you might respond by saying that some borderline cases turn out to become stellar Caltech students. True, but on the other hand, many other borderline students end up flunking out. And flunking out is a serious black mark on your academic record. Few other top-ranked schools will seriously consider transfer students who flunked out of their previous school. And those bad grades are a major setback if and when that student later wants to apply graduate school. Bottom line - it is clearly better to graduate from HYPSM than to flunk out of Caltech. If you can survive the rigor of Caltech, more power to you, but that's a fairly significant 'if'.</p>

<p>LOL ! Sakky, that's very true, however, perhaps the borderline Caltech admits typically have GPA above 3.8 and SAT above 1510 on top of their EC listing. How would the adcom know that he/she would become a borderline case later on?</p>

<p>Also if Caltech increases its selectivity, it would lose out most of its potential admit to MIT. This is not good in the eye of Caltech adcom economically :P</p>

<p>sakky,</p>

<p>Actually, very few students flunk out -- most leave before that happens. It's been argued on the board before that this is the same thing because the student was "essentially forced out" (I don't agree with this -- in my opinion, the school goes above and beyond to allow a student to stay if he/she wants to), but this is a moot point as far as the record is concerned. For most students, their records will just indicate that they transfered schools.</p>

<p>As for not admitting as many borderline cases, I don't agree with that. I don't think the borderline cases are the ones who are necessarily leaving. In my opinion, there's a certain academic threshold a person needs to pass in order to make it at Caltech. After that, it's dependent on drive, desire, and an ability to deal with high stress situations. Some people get here and realize that what they're getting here isn't worth what they're giving up. They didn't know this beforehand, so it probably wasn't readily obvious in their application. I think that the factors (above the academic threshold) which contribute to a student sinking or swimming can be very hard to see in an application. Unfortunately, to settle the debate we really need statistics of borderline cases, which is the type of thing that admissions won't (and shouldn't) release.</p>

<p>To rytskg, actually I would have to disagree that those borderline students would have the statistics that you suggested. The 25th SAT percentile for Caltech was 1460, hence a full quarter of the entering class had an SAT of 1460 or less. That's a fquite sizable chunk of the entering class, you must agree. Furthermore, 94% of the entering freshmen were in the top 10% of their high school class, which obviously means that 6% were not. I would say that this is also a fairly large chunk.</p>

<p>Now, don't get me wrong, it is obviously true that the SAT doesn't measure everything and high school class rank also doesn't measure everything. No metric is perfect. I am not here to debate the merits of the SAT or class rank. What I am saying is that Caltech could easily go back through its historical data and examine all the students who came in but, for whatever reason, didn't make it, and then perform a statistical analysis on these students to determine if they tend to hold a specific incoming trait above a certain confidence interval. For example, Caltech might find out that of all the students they admit but don't graduate, 95% of them had an SAT score of less than 1400. Or had relatively low (that is, low for Caltech) math test scores and/or grades. Or whatever it might be. Then Caltech should then just admit less of these students. </p>

<p>Some of you might object that you never really know which students aren't going to make it. But that's beside the point. You obviously can never know with a 100% guarantee who is going to make it and who isn't. But statistics can tell you what is probably going to happen. It is similar to auto insurance companies deciding whether they should insure a particular driver - the worse that driver's record is, the less likely that that company will decide to insure him, until a point is reached where the insurance company will absolutely not offer insurance. A guy who has a history of DUI's and who has been in numerous accidents is probably not a good insurance risk. Hence, Caltech can set up a table of confidence intervals and determine, based on historical data, who is highly unlikely to graduate. </p>

<p>Also, I dispute the notion that if Caltech increased its selectivity, it would lose out most of its potential admits to MIT. That might be true if Caltech were currently admitting lots of students who aren't good enough to get into MIT, which I do not see. However, the data does not seem to indicate that Caltech is admitting a significant number of students who aren't good enough to get into MIT. On a head-to-head basis, in terms of admittees, Caltech and MIT are basically even. The other way it might be true is that people who are admitted to Caltech and MIT will tend to prefer (perhaps slightly) MIT over Caltech. If that is true (and I'm not saying that it is), I would argue that might in fact be explained by Caltech's higher rigor, which may serve to turn some people off. Simply put, some people might want the greater guarantee of getting the degree that they will get from MIT rather than put up with the greater risk from Caltech of ending up with nothing. Hence, I would argue that this is really a reversal of cause and effect. </p>

<p>Finally, I don't know whether Caltech's economics has anything to do with anything. Honestly, how much money are we talking about here? Considering Caltech's highly generous financial aid, I think a case could be made that Caltech is actually LOSING money from its undergraduate program. But in any case, if Caltech is in fact making a profit from its undergrad program, it's going to amount to at best a rounding error relative to the rest of the budget. The vast vast majority of Caltech's budget comes from research dollars, from alumni donations, and from interest on its accumulated endowment.</p>

<p>Let me put it to you this way. Caltech's endowment is something on the order of $1.2 billion. If Caltech were to invest this endowment in US Federal bonds, which are generally considered to be the safest financial vehicle in the world, Caltech would earn about $50 million a year just on endowment interest alone. Caltech enrolls about 900 undergrads, of which about 100 will eventually fail to graduate. So if Caltech were to simply not have admitted these 100 students in the first place, then that is basically a loss of about $2.5 million of tuition a year, and that presumes that each and every one of those 100 students received zero financial aid from Caltech, which is obviously ridiculous. And I haven't even begun talking about all the research money that Caltech garners or the additions to the endowment from alumni donations. Or, to quote from Caltech's published 2003 budget, "...As
has been the case historically, sponsored research and gift revenues (including payout
from the endowment) in fiscal year 2003 provided 85 percent of the support for campus activities."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.caltech.edu/at-a-glance/2002-2003CaltechFinancials.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.caltech.edu/at-a-glance/2002-2003CaltechFinancials.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The point is that whatever money that Caltech might be losing from admitting fewer students is, at worst, a drop in the bucket, and payback would be in the form of improved morale within the Caltech community. I can tell you firsthand that is extraordinarily gutwrenching to watch people who you know and who you've befriended end up struggling academically and finally end up giving up and dropping out or flunking out. It's like working at a company and watching your friends getting laid off or fired. That's not fun for anybody.</p>

<p>Now to alleya, I would have to say that I agree with those people who say that flunking out and being forced out are basically the same thing, because at the end of the day, a student, for whatever reason, is unable to continue. </p>

<p>Furthermore, you have to seriously look at what is meant by the notion of 'transferring schools'. We have to be careful about our definitions here. There are obviously some students who come to Caltech and who do just fine and could graduate, but decide that they want to transfer out anyway. They are not forced out in any way, they just decide that they would rather be somewhere else, maybe someplace with a major that is more to their liking, or they just don't like Pasadena, or whatever. Every school has these students. I am not talking about these students.</p>

<p>What I am talking about are those students who come to Caltech and then start doing very poorly academically, either because they aren't smart enough, or they aren't motivated enough, or they aren't mature enough, or some combination or the 3. Those are the students that I am talking about. You say that they will simply transfer out somewhere, and my response is "Transfer out to where?". If you're good enough to get into Caltech, then you're almost certainly good enough to get into some other top 15-20 school, and you're probably good enough to have gotten into at least 1 of HYPSM. However, if you come to Caltech and then start getting a bunch of mediocre or less-than-mediocre grades, what do you think your chances are of successfully transferring into HYPSM, or even into some other top 20 school? Low indeed, you must agree. Rightly or wrongly, if you are doing badly at Caltech, then few top schools will want to admit you as a transfer. You shot the moon and you lost big. If you do end up successfully transferring out, it will probably only be to some fairly low-ranked school. In that case, that person would probably have been better off not getting admitted into Caltech in the first place. Case in point - I know one guy who was admitted to Caltech, and also to Stanford and a bunch of the lower Ivies. He chose Caltech, and barely scraped by in his first year, and wanted to transfer out. Stanford didn't want him anymore. The lower Ivies didn't want him. He ended up at UCSB. He tells me now, over and over again, that going to Caltech was probably the worst decision he made in his life, and that he should have taken Stanford when he had the chance. </p>

<p>Now obviously, that story was anecdotal. But it does serve to illustrate a larger point. Caltech is, in some ways, an example of 'shooting the moon'. If you go to Caltech and you do well, then the world is your oyster. But what if you don't do well? In that case, you run the significant risk of greatly hurting yourself, at least, compared to going to some other school where things are safer and you're more likely to graduate. </p>

<p>And finally, as to your last paragraph, we have to be careful about what we mean by 'borderline' cases. I am precisely defining 'borderline' cases as those people who are likely to leave because of poor academic performance. I am surmising that these people are probably those who have borderline academic records, but I agree that it is not necessarily so. But that's not the point. The point is that Caltech should figure out who these people are, whoever they are, and then seriously consider not admitting as many of them. I also don't believe that it really is all that difficult to determine who these people are, at least to some confidence interval. For example, Caltech might run multiple rounds of interviews for the applicants to assess who really is fired up and motivated and who isn't. Caltech might want to call up guidance counselors and teachers (basically, whoever wrote the rec's) to really determine who really has the heart to succeed, and who doesn't. </p>

<p>The point is, I don't think it's that hard for Caltech to find out. Caltech clearly has the budget to do it. If Caltech wants to do it, Caltech could do it. The question is, does Caltech really want to do it? I get the feeling that Caltech feels that not only is this not a real problem, I strongly suspect that Caltech actually seems to like it the way it is - that a lower graduation rate relative to HYPSM proves that Caltech is tougher and more strenuous than those other schools.</p>

<p>"I also don't believe that it really is all that difficult to determine who these people are, at least to some confidence interval. For example, Caltech might run multiple rounds of interviews for the applicants to assess who really is fired up and motivated and who isn't. Caltech might want to call up guidance counselors and teachers (basically, whoever wrote the rec's) to really determine who really has the heart to succeed, and who doesn't.
"</p>

<p>Uh... that would give skew the student body towards outgoing people. I don't really think there's an easy way to determine the people truly willing to work hard.</p>

<p>Sakky,</p>

<p>I don't think your claim in the last paragraph was accurate, although I can't be so sure myself. But Caltech, in some of its reports, actually expresses its concern about the rigor of its curricula, which in fact has some effects on its yield rate. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to care much about such matter. Regarding the selectivity issue, I think most people agree that technically Caltech and MIT are perhaps of the hardest schools to get in, and most students take both of them as super reach schools. Now if Caltech is to increase its selectivity, my guess is many students will not even bother to apply to Caltech. I have actually encountered some people who didn't apply to Caltech because they thought paying $50 for application fee was too expensive for such a high rejection risk.</p>

<p>Interesting points, sakky. Here are a few of my thoughts on them.</p>

<p>I read applications. I vote on who gets in. The first question I ask is "Can this kid make it here?" If there is even a plausible possibility that the answer is no -- no matter how much we otherwise want the student -- we tend not to take him or her. Frequently, in discussing particuarly difficult cases, admisisons officers will note that taking a certain student (and exposing him to the consequences of coming here unprepared) would be much worse than not taking him and exposing him to the relatively less severe disappointment of not getting in. We are keenly aware, in short, of the issues you raise.</p>

<p>How loud a "yes" do we require to the question of whether they can make it? To give you an idea, we sometimes get nervous a teacher fails to rate a student's academic ability at the level of "one of the top few in my career." (Of course, there are many exceptions to the rule, but I'm just trying to give you an idea of how high the standards are.) The sort of kid that teachers rate as the smartest in 20 years is close to average here. </p>

<p>As Galen discussed on another thread, a single sub-A grade in calculus or physics without an adequate explanation is often a pretty serious issue. In particular, we know that whatever calculus or physics class you took in high school was a whole lot easier than the core classes you'll take here. If you couldn't be at the top there, there'll be some doubt about whether you can pass here. And failure isn't something we'd wish on our students.</p>

<p>In short, what at schools like Princeton and Harvard is considered pretty impressive math/science achievement is often considered borderline here. I can't imagine a much more rigorous screening procedure that would still be practical.</p>

<p>So while your concerns about protecting students from not making it are well-intentioned, I don't think we could do much more than we're doing. Plus, given the extent to which SAT scores are bunched up at the top, I doubt that statistically significant trends could be extracted from them. Here, teacher recs are much more telling. And trust me, we pay a great deal of attention to that and to the rest of the application (even though good scores are obviously important, too).</p>

<p>Now, on the broader question: It's true that Caltech gradutes a smaller percentage of its entering students than do its peer schools. My personal view is that this isn't a bad thing. My view is that it doesn't mean much to graduate from a place if failure to do so is essentially not an option (this is the case at HYPS, at least, maybe M too). </p>

<p>What distinguishes Caltech from its peers is that after admitting only the cream of the crop, it doesn't let them coast to a relatively certain diploma. You have to rise to a whole new level here to survive. Being the smartest kid back home is an assumption, and then Caltech forces you to get a few times smarter to graduate. It's like the Olympic team or the NBA. Everyone who is allowed to train at that level is extraordinary, but only a fraction of those survive to make it to the highest grade.</p>

<p>Is that for everyone? Surely not. Some people don't want the intellectual equivalent of Kenyan running camp. For the select group who do, Caltech is one of the very few places left in the country that won't let you coast, won't coddle you for being impressive enough to get in, and won't dispense obligatory self-esteem boosters.</p>

<p>One reward (among many) is one of the few remaining truly meaningful diplomas in American undergraduate education.</p>

<p>For some, all of that is frightening and off-putting. For others, it's an inspiring challenge. I'd like to keep it that way.</p>

<p>Ben, one of the reasons HYPS graduates such a high percentage is that there are a host of other majors they can switch to if they get blown out of engineering or the sciences. I think you will admit, CalTech offers few other avenues other than engineering and science.</p>

<p>I'm not being antagonistic but if Caltech is so highly regarded as an engineering school, why are they not ranked any better by USNWR in undergraduate engineering specialty areas? I believe they only make a showing in aeronautical engineering and even in that they are 5th.</p>

<p>following up on my last post:</p>

<p>If CalTech blows out 10 to 15% of each class, why take the chance at all? Forget this argument over who might be better at what. The differences are not significant. They're all GREAT schools. Go to MIT, Stanford or Princeton and you're golden for grad school and the job market if you succeed, and you can switch into a different major if you don't. At CalTech, you have fewer attractive options (hence the high drop-out rate). Why put yourself through the hell of transferring if you don't have to?</p>

<p>itsallgood -- because for some people, the superiority in the rigor of science education here, the research opportunities, the 3:1 student:faculty ratio, the weather, the campus, etc. (I could go on) are enough to outweigh the risk of failing out. Plus, they know they are too smart to fail out.</p>

<p>ColoradoKid,</p>

<p>If you take the National Research Council (NRC) ranking, I believe Caltech ranks 3rd in the engineering as a whole. The problem with USNWR specialty is that they only take peer assessment ranking score which translates to 'how many professors you know are at those schools'. Well since the faculty of Caltech is so small, it doesn't do well in the ranking. However, if you look at USNWR overall engineering ranking, without trash measurement like the 'number of PhD granted', then you can see that Caltech would be the 1st or 2nd in the list.</p>

<p>Ben, first of all, I want you to know I've been on the CalTech campus. It's big, beautiful and is in a really great neighborhood in the Pasadena area. No argument that CalTech is pretty much unbeatable in those criteria, especially if you prefer warmth and sun over cold, dreary winter. I can't quote numbers, but CalTech is probably also #1 for pure and deep research in sciences. </p>

<p>But, when it comes to Engineering, any amount of "Rigor" above and beyond that found at MIT and Stanford (which most genius kids find rigorous enough) is just useless, masochistic abuse...especially since MIT and Stanford (and Berkeley) are recognized pretty much universally as the gold standard in all the subsets of Engineering. </p>

<p>Here's my point.....Just looking at it from a cold, analytical viewpoint, there is an added risk attached to CalTech (greater drop out rate) with no comensurate increase in reward for students who want to be Engineers.</p>

<p>If you want Pure Science and Research, by all means choose CalTech.</p>