Thanks!

Colleges and Universities A-Z California Institute of Technology
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<p>Hey, thanks in advance for your feedback!</p>

<p>I go to a techy magnet school, ranked 22 in the country by Newsweek</p>

<p>GPA: 4.775 w 4.000 uw</p>

<p>Rank: 1 / 90</p>

<p>ACT: 34</p>

<p>Critical Reading: 700
Math: 710 (I promise to raise!)
Writing: 780
(Will retake)</p>

<p>Chem: 780 (will take Math I and II)</p>

<p>Junior Schedule:
AP Psych-5
AP Chem-4
Chem Research
AP Language-4
AP Calc AB-5
AP US History-5
+ 2 college courses at UF (Honors Seminar on Medical Neurosci & Lab research)</p>

<p>Senior Schedule:
AP Calc BC
AP Physics C
AP Bio
AP Lit
AP Computers A
Multimedia (mandatory)</p>

<p>ECs:
Big Brothers Big Sisters (President)
School Newspaper
National Honor Society
Spanish Honor Society
Speech and Debate Honor Society (Degree of Honor)
Math Honor Society /Mu Alpha Theta</p>

<p>Awards and stuff: </p>

<p>National Merit (Commended)
Intel ISEF finalist – The Inhibitory Effects of Taste on Pain (Medicine & Health)
Designed and raced model hydrogen fuel cell car
1st in state competition – qualified by interview to rep. US at internationals
International Youth Fuel Cell Competition:
1st place performance in fork-lift competition
1st place engineering
2nd place Quiz Bowl
3rd place vehicle race
Exhibitor at several expos on renewable energy/conservation</p>

<p>Summer programs:
2 summers at Duke TiP ~ courses on neuroscience and astrobiology
University of Florida SSTP-CPET
High school / college credit
Research w/ mentor on Taste and Pain (7 weeks 200+ lab hours)</p>

<p>Volunteering: 100 hours Big Brothers Big Sisters
100 hours as teacher assistant at local science center summer program</p>

<p>I plan to major in chemical engineering (biomolecular) and eventually attend med school. </p>

<p>thanksss</p>

2

<p>I must say you're looking much better than I was this time last year, and they took me! I wouldn't be too worried. If you write some bangin' essays and get good recs (which doesn't seem like it should be a problem for you), you ought to be fine. Try get around 750 on Math II. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you need to take Math I for Caltech.</p>

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<p>Don't bother taking the SAT II Math 1. Take something like Biology or Physics instead.</p>

<p>Your chances look fine, though.</p>

4

<p>"Intel ISEF finalist – The Inhibitory Effects of Taste on Pain (Medicine & Health)" </p>

<p>pretty good hook right there</p>

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<p>thanks, I hope so! I've heard mixed opinions...</p>

6

<p>"I plan to major in chemical engineering (biomolecular) and eventually attend med school."</p>

<p>You might want to rethink your major then... ChemE is notorious for grade deflation. You might want to consider E&AS or MechE, but you've got a lot of time before you need to worry about picking a major.</p>

<p>But your chances look good, just make sure you get like 760+ for your SAT math scores.</p>

7

<p>Keep in mind, the 25th percentile scores for those enrolled are 690 in reading and 780 in math, and the 25th percentile scores for those admitted are likely higher. All your other things are good, but the adcoms might be wondering if you can survive core math with those SAT scores since you don't have AIME results, advanced math courses, or any other special math achievements to make up for them. You probably want to get an 800 in SAT math and an 800 in the SAT II level II math (I believe these were the median scores last year.) Anywhere in the 700s is fine for reading and writing.</p>

<p>Also, while Caltech is a great place for chemical engineering, it is not a great place for 99% of pre-meds. The chemical engineering option here has a lot of pretty difficult requirements, forcing you to take a large courseload each term, which, combined with math/physics core, results in a very low GPA for most people. Unlike grad schools, med schools don't really take into account the difficulty of the school or the courseload when looking at your GPA, so going to Caltech will probably hurt your chances more than almost any other school (but you'll learn more science!) The student culture is also hostile to being competitive over grades, not being collaborative, or taking the easiest schedule you can just to get a higher GPA. We also take our Honor Code very seriously, and most of our exams are take-home. Would you be able to self-proctor a timed, closed-book final that you were failing (even though you studied a lot) without looking in your book or taking extra time? Even if you needed a 3.8 GPA for med school?</p>

<p>Basically, if you're dead set on being pre-med, you probably shouldn't consider Caltech. If you're only seriously considering pre-med, you should have a good reason for applying to Caltech outside of it being prestigious and good in science.</p>

8

<p>Antiquark, the OP is an ISEF finalist and has worked on award-winning engineering projects. My guess is that he/she plans to continue research and engineering at Caltech...that's a plenty good "reason for applying to Caltech outside of it being prestigious". Med school (+ MS in many cases) is a typical path for future biomedical engineers, who really don't need a PhD since their work is applied but do need access to patient samples, a privilege only available to MDs. I wouldn't assume that the OP is one of those shallow pre-meds whose only goal is to survive undergrad - future biomed/bioengineering students have a lot to gain here.</p>

<p>Also, the chemical engineering major has gotten easier in the past 1-2 years: some of the hardest required courses became less challenging (new teachers/response to student feedback), and I think there are fewer requirements in some tracks... The cohort of juniors in ChE is much larger than normal in the past few years as a result. (Normally they would all switch to chem. ;)) I think it's very realistic to think that someone could excel in that major now and earn a good GPA without cheating.</p>

9

<p>I don't know, many people here still consider ChemE the hardest major at Caltech. I don't think earning a good GPA (good relative to what med schools look for, not grad schools) in any major here is easy (except maybe humanities? not sure on that), and ChemE is still definitely one of the more difficult and time consuming majors here.</p>

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<p>erm, I don't plan on cheating...but I do appreciate your opinion that Caltech is not necessarily the best choice for pre-med. I do, however, plan on majoring in an engineering field (biomed/chem) despite how rigorous or hard it might be, whether it's at Catech (or Duke/Vandy/JHopkins). thanks :]</p>

11

<p>We do have a bioengineering major now that I would imagine would be easier than ChemE, but the major is brand-new so I don't know. </p>

<p>All I can tell you is that you're going to have a much easier time getting the GPA you need for med school at Duke, Vanderbilt, or Johns Hopkins (although I do hear JHU is pretty competitive). I should also point out that the atmospheres of these schools are very different from the atmosphere at Caltech. </p>

<p>If I were you, I would be very reluctant to come to Caltech. If you really, really want to come here, then great, and welcome. Just know what you're getting into. </p>

<p>I think one of the primary causes of students becoming bitter at Caltech is the number of students who really don't know what Caltech is all about. They come here because they applied to all the schools with good reputations and they got in here. Maybe they didn't get in anywhere else in that first tier of schools, or maybe the financial aid package was better. In any case, they come here with an attitude of "Oh, I didn't get into Harvard, my dream school, but this is ranked very closely to Harvard, so it has to be great!" I seriously know a guy here who used that exact logic. When he got here, he really struggled--he tried to transfer out, applied to a couple schools--UCLA, UCSD, UC Berkeley, Cornell... didn't get into any of them. </p>

<p>If you come here realizing the incredible amount of work that you're going to have to put in, and you have a strong reason for thinking all that extra work is a good idea, you'll do fine. I came to this school because I wanted to be thrown in over my head, I wanted to be forced to struggle, so I could prove myself. I especially expected a difficult struggle given that I was a waitlisted student. </p>

<p>Because I expected and even desired the type of environment that Tech has to offer, I am very happy here. I'm also doing quite well. Even as a rising junior, I already feel very prepared for grad school.</p>

<p>EDIT: BTW, where are you from? I saw UF, I'm from Orlando (Winter Park High School to be exact).</p>

12

<p>OP, no one has really mentioned so far that Caltech's collaboration policies and early pass/fail grading counterbalance the difficult coursework. (If you're not familiar, many courses - esp. the freshman and sophomore year courses - encourage students to work together on their problem sets. Everyone takes the same "core" classes so it's easy to find collaborators.) You're not expected to solve all of the problems on your own from the very beginning. You'll fill in your deficits on the problem sets with the help of your friends during your frosh courses. By the time you reach the midterm and final, you're ready to fly solo...but even then it's just practice because your first two terms are entirely pass/fail. You become fully independent as you progress to upper division courses.</p>

<p>And at JHU? I've never been, but I bet you can count on your classmates - all n hundred of them, not just premeds but other engineers - to ignore or even sabotage you. (And don't forget to hit the ground running - otherwise your freshman year grades could sink your GPA.) Maybe the undergrad ChE requirements are not as rigorous as at Caltech, but you know those JHU students had to fight every battle for themselves from day one. So IMO Caltech isn't "harder", it's just that at the end of the day, the Caltech students have learned more because they had the right kind of help early on. That is the difference in atmosphere between Caltech and everywhere else, and I would argue that it makes for happier, better-educated premeds. Don't work harder, work smarter ;)</p>

<p>I think the whole "Caltech grades super-harsh" thing is totally overblown. Here on campus we can access grade distributions for previous classes. In ChE, the worst curve you'll see is centered on a B. In math, bio, and upper-division just-about-anything, most curves are around an A-. You would be hard-pressed to find a top-tier university where the average grade was much higher. Of the students who graduated on time this year (i.e., weren't in their fifth year and had actually completed all of their requirements), around 1/2 graduated with honors (GPA>3.5). This seems to be on par with schools like Duke.</p>

<p>Finally, there is a tendency for prospective grad students to assume that their GPA doesn't need to be high (say 3.7) because they come from a reputable program and have research experience. Well I've got news: any top-tier STEM grad department could fill a cohort with MIT, Berkeley, and Stanford graduates who have 3.9+ GPAs and three years of research. I know one department that is famous for admitting a solid quarter of its class off the waitlist based solely on external fellowship winnings. It's easy to talk about the "GPA you need for med school" and how premeds shouldn't bother applying to Caltech...well, grad school admissions is no cakewalk either and yet so many of us manage to get those high GPAs, papers, and research experiences. I say premeds have as a good a chance as any of us.</p>

13

<p>But top tier grad schools <em>don't</em> fill their classes with only people with 3.9/4.0 GPAs, even though they could. For most scientific fields, PhD programs care far more about research and recommendations than they do grades and GRE scores. Caltech is undoubtedly a great place for access to top-notch research and professors. PhD programs also tend to not have GPA cutoffs, or if they do, not always follow them. It is not at all unreasonable for a Techer with an average GPA, with is probably more around 3.2, according to the Registrar report and Craig (all Techers with >=3.5 graduate with honors but not all Techers who graduate with honors had >= 3.5), to get into MIT or Stanford in most science PhD programs. I know a lot of absurdly intelligent people (by Tech standards) with very low GPAs because they took extremely hard classes and spent a lot of time on independent research. Caltech to some degree makes (or at least encourages) everyone be a little like this, compared to students at other schools. The more "holistic" systems that grad schools use for admission are more likely to recognize this type of person's ability.</p>

<p>I still think that someone who is sure that they want to go to med school should not consider Caltech unless they have some good reason to. "Caltech is a good school for science" is not a good reason, but "the core math and physics requirements sound like something I'd want to take" or "the student culture seems like it would be a really good fit for me" are.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
That is the difference in atmosphere between Caltech and everywhere else,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I hope by "everywhere else" you're just talking about "ultra-competitive pre-med students at a few select schools" as I know back at my undergrad I worked on every homework with friends. My study group actually became known in one of the study areas, because we'd always wind up invading other peoples' board space and getting too loud since we'd debate over the correct way to do every problem.</p>

<p>Also, you don't need a 3.9/4.0 to get into a top grad school; I got into here with my 3.6 perfectly fine. :)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I think the whole "Caltech grades super-harsh" thing is totally overblown. Here on campus we can access grade distributions for previous classes. In ChE, the worst curve you'll see is centered on a B. In math, bio, and upper-division just-about-anything, most curves are around an A-. You would be hard-pressed to find a top-tier university where the average grade was much higher. Of the students who graduated on time this year (i.e., weren't in their fifth year and had actually completed all of their requirements), around 1/2 graduated with honors (GPA>3.5). This seems to be on par with schools like Duke.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, perhaps it's true that the harsh grading reputation at Caltech can be disputed; I don't know. But what is indisputable is that Caltech has a quite low graduation rate, relative to peer schools. Only 89% of Caltech students will graduate in 6 years, or put another way, 11% of Caltech students won't graduate in 6 years. and While that's obviously better than the national average, it pales in comparison to the Ivies, Stanford, or (since it was mentioned as a comparison), Duke. Even MIT, which is Caltech's closest peer school, can boast of having only 7% of its students not graduating in 6 years. </p>

<p>I can think of two reasonable factors for why such a difference exists, and both would give pause to a prospective premed (or any student, for that matter).</p>

<p>The rigorous Caltech curriculum flunks a disproportionate number of students out, or otherwise causes a lot of students to leave because they know they would have flunked out. You say that many Caltech upper-division courses curve to an A-, yet even if that's true, that just begs the question of what happens in the *lower-division courses, as that may be precisely where those subpar students are either weeded out or are otherwise convinced to leave the school. {For example, if you're getting straight C's in your lower-division course, sure, you're still passing, but I think it's fairly clear that staying at Caltech is going to be a rough ride.} Now, granted, Caltech does provide P/F grading and 'shadow grading' to freshmen, but still, the upshot is that if you're doing poorly in your freshmen year, that's probably a good signal that you should leave. </p>

<p>*Caltech does not have a broad set of non-technical offerings, so that if you find out that you want to switch to something non-techie, you may be better off transferring to another school. Now, to be sure, Caltech does offer some nontechnical majors, but surely nothing like the breadth available at the Ivies, Stanford, Duke, or even MIT. At any school, there are incoming freshmen who decide that they want to switch fields of study, yet the ability to do that is quite limited at Caltech. Hence many of those students find out they're better off leaving and transferring to another school.</p>

<p>Now, to be clear, perhaps it wouldn't be a problem if transferring to another top school was easy. But it is not; getting in as a transfer applicant to a top school is almost always more difficult than getting in as a freshman. In other words, if you get into Duke as a freshman, turn it down for Caltech, but then later decide that you want to go to Duke after all, you may not get in this time around, in which case you're stuck at a school you don't really want. </p>

<p>The bottom line is that in order to get into med school, you first have to graduate with your bachelor's*, but there's less assurance you will do that at Caltech relative to peer schools. </p>

<p>Don't get me wrong. I like Caltech. My brother went to Caltech. He enjoyed it immensely. But he also freely admits that Caltech is a good school only for those students who do well and who fit into the tech 'geek' lifestyle, and he freely admits that the school is quite harsh towards those students who don't do well or who don't fit into the lifestyle. </p>

<p>*Granted, there are some med schools that will admit people who have only completed 3 years of undergrad. But the analysis still holds in that at Caltech you run the risk of not even making it through 3 years.</p>

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<p>Yeah, you're right...we lose a ridiculous number of students. I have seen people leave for many reasons including the ones you mentioned. I think the biggest reason is lack of motivation. I'm sure it's the same at every good school but I'll say it anyway. We admit kids who got great grades and scores, played three instruments, were on varsity track, &c. - and then it turns out that they were only doing all of that because Mommy and Daddy never stopped riding their ***. Those kids might not have picked this school or even their career path: after all, if the parents are paying for college then they hold the cards. All of a sudden the students have a choice between studying something boring or goofing off/lighting up/hanging out. They might leave on their own, or the parents might stop paying for the education when they see the bad grades. At any rate I'm guessing a majority of our students leave that way. (Esp. since I feel that Caltech is very lenient about allowing failing students to continue studying here.)</p>

<p>And yep, you're pretty much boned if you try to transfer out with even marginal grades - it doesn't help that you'd have almost no academic record because of the P/F system. Also dead on about the offered majors. Even if we offered more HSS degrees, they'd be worthless in terms of continuing one's education, so no one would bother to earn them.</p>

<p>Still I think there is an opportunity for premeds to do well here. Each House has its own personality so most people will feel at home somewhere, if they bother to shop around. Furthermore premeds don't have to devote themselves to research during the school year, as so many prospective grad students choose to do. That frees up extra time to polish off sets and really study. It's all about having the time and putting in the effort, so a motivated non-researcher could reasonably hope for a 3.8+ GPA even if they're not supernaturally gifted.</p>

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<p>Sakky, I agree with most of what you say except that I really don't think you need to be a tech geek to fit in here. I'm not, most of my friends are not, and we're very happy to be here. You do need to be somewhat a masochist though :P</p>

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<p>ahaha... dream on, lizzardfire :-P</p>

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<p>:P I am so totally not!</p>

<p>you, on the other hand...lol</p>

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<p>
[quote]
And yep, you're pretty much boned if you try to transfer out with even marginal grades - it doesn't help that you'd have almost no academic record because of the P/F system. Also dead on about the offered majors. Even if we offered more HSS degrees, they'd be worthless in terms of continuing one's education, so no one would bother to earn them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I wonder if that's really true. I would point to the example of the Sloan School of Management, which I am increasingly convinced is one of MIT's greatest gems. Sloan didn't even offer its current undergrad program in management science until 1984 (before then, the Sloan undergrad program was 'Engineering Administration' or similar proto-iterations). Heck, the Sloan School itself didn't exist until 1952 (before then, it was part of the Economics department). Nowadays, Sloan management science is the 4th most popular undergrad major at MIT. </p>

<p>I could have told the same story about the MIT Department of Economics, or the Department Political Science - which didn't even become an independent department until 1965 but is now regarded as a top 10-15 polisci department - but I think the Sloan School is the most prominent example. The point is, if MIT has managed to build some strong social science undergrad majors in a relatively short period of time, surely Caltech can do the same. After all, Caltech has plenty of money - heck it even has a larger endowment per student than MIT does - so I'm pretty sure that Caltech could afford this.</p>